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PHR Medium guns

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Lorn

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 9:11 am

Statistically speaking, Medium guns are fine.
Comparing them against 2x UCM 6400's or a Shaltari disintegrator battery against 3+/4+/5+ armor, the following mean damages per firing are achieved:


There lies the issue the UCM Massdrivers ships itself tend to be slightly sub par. Compared to BTLs and the other Races (Scourge and Shaltari).

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Shikatanai

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 3:07 pm

Lordprinceps wrote:
Shikatanai wrote:You forget two of the most important factor for those weapons that cannot be described with this statistics approach.
1. You need to have two valuable targets and need to be able to get in with those arcs. This will usually happen much later than you'll need them against prepared opponents. Exception is the Europa of course.

Hmm? How so? I'm not talking about both medium batteries (one on each side) of, say, an Ikarus having combined firepower equal to a broadside, I'm talking about an actual broadside (like you might find on an Orion) having comparable (and greater) firepower than other faction's main guns, as well as being generally better than light and heavy broadsides (except against their preferred targets).
The original contention was that "Medium guns are weak" and I showed that, no, they're actually quite good. Saying that a medium battery feels wekk compared to a full light broadside is like saying that a single 6400 turret (if such a weapon existed in the game) felt weak compared to a Beijing's 3x turrets.

Shikatanai wrote:2. This game is mainly about trading ships fast or at least cripple them, time to kill is really low. Spreading small amounts of damage all over the place isn't helping as it takes much longer to actually influence the game while comparable groups with other weapons can do exactly that much faster.

Exactly, you're absolutely right, but it's very important to remember that stuff like the Ikarus and Ganymede do NOT have full weapons. They have the PHR equivalent of double 4200's.
Ships like the Orion, Hector, Achilles, Ajax, etc etc don't spread firepower all over the place; they can put a full broadside's worth of guns onto a single target.
Ships like the Ikarus and Ganymede can only put half that amount out.

Really, the only issue is that of perception. Medium guns feel weak in comparison to Light and Heavy guns because, almost invariably, Light and Heavy guns are fired against their preferred targets. This leads to them being outright better than the medium guns in all observed cases (light guns vs light; post-errata heavy guns vs heavy/super), or at the least equivalent (pre-errata heavy guns vs heavy/super). When given the choice between shooting, say, heavy guns at a medium ship or at a heavy ship, players will almost always go for the heavy ship except under unusual circumstances.
Because of this, players will never see how poorly light guns perform against non-light ships, or heavy guns against non-heavy ships, which would given context as to how the medium guns are, baseline, better than the light and heavy guns.


You clearly did not understand the intention of my post.
Just comparing an isolated weapon system is not useful at all.
Medium batteries are weak because the way they are implemented in the game. The difference to e.g. massdriver Turrets (or even worse to Occulus Beams or Desintegrators) is their need to have two valuable targets on each side of the ship which can be avoided quite easily with solid position long enough while also not being able to inflict that damage where you need to - at one key target. And yes that is making those guns weak, because you do not get enough out of it to justify investing into a Orion imho.

Besides that Massdrivers are, as Lorn stated, subpar anyway. Compare the Orion to e.g. an Amber, a Sphinx or a Berlin...
That's of course also true for other PHR cruisers.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 4:53 pm

Lorn wrote:There lies the issue the UCM Massdrivers ships itself tend to be slightly sub par. Compared to BTLs and the other Races (Scourge and Shaltari).


True, but only slightly. 6400's are literally identical to Disintigrators, with the latter only having a longer range because of Shaltari scan.
Without scald, 6400's are likewise equivalent to Oculus arrays. The 2 attack 2 damage does change the distribution some, making 0 and 4 damage more likely than 1 and 3 (but not my much), but the overall mean is the same.
Scald does give a non-negligible benefit, however.
As for the ships themselves, there's argument as to whether or not the extra armor and better Arcs make up for it or not, but 6400's themselves could do with a small buff to differentiate themselves.

Shikatanai wrote:You clearly did not understand the intention of my post.
Just comparing an isolated weapon system is not useful at all.
Medium batteries are weak because the way they are implemented in the game. The difference to e.g. massdriver Turrets (or even worse to Occulus Beams or Desintegrators) is their need to have two valuable targets on each side of the ship which can be avoided quite easily with solid position long enough while also not being able to inflict that damage where you need to - at one key target. And yes that is making those guns weak, because you do not get enough out of it to justify investing into a Orion imho.

No, I understood the intention of your post completely. I'm saying that complaining about medium batteries being bad is fallacious because they are literally not a full weapon system. They are exactly half of one. It's like complaining about the 4200's on a Madrid not being able to take on a cruiser or whatever, where three 4200's would be equivalent to a 6400 battery.
They are weak by design, because they are half a gun. They are weak on the Ikarus/Ganymede specifically because those ships only have half a broadside on each side.
They are strong on the Orion/Hector/Leonidas specifically because they have a full broadside each, and can put a full broadside worth of firepower into a single target.
They are strong on a Europa because it's literally the equivalent of a Toulon on each side.
When we actually look at the full medium broadside, the actual, full gun, we find that not only is it equivalent to the 6400's, Oculus Array, or Disinitigrator battery, but it's actually better! As for it the Orion (arguably) not being worth taking, that has no bearing on the actual effectiveness of the weapon system.

Shikatanai wrote:Besides that Massdrivers are, as Lorn stated, subpar anyway. Compare the Orion to e.g. an Amber, a Sphinx or a Berlin...
That's of course also true for other PHR cruisers.

I have. A full medium broadside still out damages a disitigrator battery, an Oculus Array (even w/ Scald) significiantly. It is beaten out by the Cobra, but only on the order of 0.25 more average damage.
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Shikatanai

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 5:18 pm

Lordprinceps wrote:They are strong on the Orion/Hector/Leonidas specifically because they have a full broadside each, and can put a full broadside worth of firepower into a single target.
They are strong on a Europa because it's literally the equivalent of a Toulon on each side.
When we actually look at the full medium broadside, the actual, full gun, we find that not only is it equivalent to the 6400's, Oculus Array, or Disinitigrator battery, but it's actually better! As for it the Orion (arguably) not being worth taking, that has no bearing on the actual effectiveness of the weapon system.

I have. A full medium broadside still out damages a disitigrator battery, an Oculus Array (even w/ Scald) significiantly. It is beaten out by the Cobra, but only on the order of 0.25 more average damage.


And those two statements actually underline why you did not understand at all. Orion Hector and Leonidas are all bad ships because of what I said before. It does not matter if your one Broadside is on average outperforming one Desintegrator because the Amber will have the opportunity to bring in both it's desintegrators on one target and it can and will use both much easier and much more often then the Orion will do so.
That's why comparing single weapon systems won't describe the complete picture. It does not matter if one weapon system outdamages another one on paper if the circumstances on the table are different.
The Medium broadside is bad because it is one per side with only sidearcs, but that's part of the Medium Broadside - of course it would be good if the Broadsides would have F/S... but if you keep it as a Broadside it needs to be more effective.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 5:37 pm

Shikatanai wrote:And those two statements actually underline why you did not understand at all. Orion Hector and Leonidas are all bad ships because of what I said before. It does not matter if your one Broadside is on average outperforming one Desintegrator because the Amber will have the opportunity to bring in both it's desintegrators on one target and it can and will use both much easier and much more often then the Orion will do so.
That's why comparing single weapon systems won't describe the complete picture. It does not matter if one weapon system outdamages another one on paper if the circumstances on the table are different.
The Medium broadside is bad because it is one per side with only sidearcs, but that's part of the Medium Broadside - of course it would be good if the Broadsides would have F/S... but if you keep it as a Broadside it needs to be more effective.


My mistake; I had assumed we were talking about single weapon firings on standard orders, rather than maximum damage on WF.
The problem with that is, again, similar to the problem with the UCM 6400s. The PHR broadsides are already great on standard orders, so any benefit they get must apply solely to WF.
Alternately, a solution is to simply take, in the case of the Orion, two Orions! Or more conservatively, keep both Orions close to each other rather than spreading them out. If one Orion is in a position to let loose both of its broadsides, then the other will be as well, and combined they can do more single target damage than any other ships, as well as being able to do the same on an entirely seperate target simultaneously.
The main issue, however, lies in the very design of PHR ships. Their weapon systems do more damage overall than other weapon systems, and they do more damage overall on WF, at the cost of worse arcs and not being able to bring all of that firepower to bare on a single target.
That all said, however, I really don't think a single broadside should be able to do what a Rio or Sphinx or Amber can do on WF. The PHR's design is firmly "more damage overall, but split", and any proposed changes should respect that.
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 7:14 pm

I agree with the idea that PHR should be doing more damage while split vs a pure WF ship. All the linking has done wonders for PHR performance in my experience although I'm under the heavy calibre guns more so that the mediums since the change so not sure that helps the case of mediums being lacklustre in most scenarios.

I would also say that getting those split shots off is easier than people lead on. We have clusters/stations that are known points on the table that ships must occupy. I have had no issue getting St Petes into WF positions in many games just as my PHR opponents have had no issue getting into linked broadside positions. Review you tactics and ship positions if you are not getting those multi-broadside shots off each and every game. I admit they may not always be the most desirable angles/targets but the difference in getting a couple linked broadsides off over the course of the game more than makes up for any lack of damage potential vs cobras or what not. My heavier hulls have taken a lot of damage off light calibre shots simply because of good positioning by my PHR opponents.
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Shikatanai

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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostTue Nov 21, 2017 8:00 pm

Cry of the Wind wrote:I agree with the idea that PHR should be doing more damage while split vs a pure WF ship. All the linking has done wonders for PHR performance in my experience although I'm under the heavy calibre guns more so that the mediums since the change so not sure that helps the case of mediums being lacklustre in most scenarios.

I would also say that getting those split shots off is easier than people lead on. We have clusters/stations that are known points on the table that ships must occupy. I have had no issue getting St Petes into WF positions in many games just as my PHR opponents have had no issue getting into linked broadside positions. Review you tactics and ship positions if you are not getting those multi-broadside shots off each and every game. I admit they may not always be the most desirable angles/targets but the difference in getting a couple linked broadsides off over the course of the game more than makes up for any lack of damage potential vs cobras or what not. My heavier hulls have taken a lot of damage off light calibre shots simply because of good positioning by my PHR opponents.


The question is the amount of turns you need to get it. Especially since this game allows premeasuring it is pretty easy to avoid certain actions for a certain amount of time. That's why i disagree here. (That being said I also think most of the players tend to play way too aggressive... in our Meta getting in decent broadside shots comes in way too late usually - exception is of course the Europa and maybe if someone plays a single SR5 Cruiser...) Imho a lot comes down to the positioning of the opposing player rather than yourself if you bring ships dedicated for a certain position they want to have (Pete / Orion) compared to ships that are way easier brought into position.
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Re: PHR Medium guns

PostWed Nov 22, 2017 10:34 am

Lordprinceps wrote:As for the ships themselves, there's argument as to whether or not the extra armor and better Arcs make up for it or not


As the rest has cleared up I am only replying to that part.

This is a flawed argument for UCM as both the UCM Massdriver firing arcs and the 3+ armour (which also applies for PHR) tend to be overrated.
First the arcs, if we take the supposed standard Cruisers Rio, Sphinx, Orion and Amber.
For orders that allow only one weapon the arcs on the Rio, Sphinx and Amber are identical. For weapons free, those three ships can only bring all their weapons to bear on the same target if it is in the front arc. The only one having arc troubles is the Orion. This does change slightly to the better if we look at heavy Cruisers but, I would argue it get´s worse looking at light Cruisers.
Secondly the armour, 3+ Lock systems ignore armour half off the time, it only get´s worse with BTL. Armour only shines if a ship is targeted with a low Lock value weapon system, preferably 5+ or worse. This can also happen due to modifiers but usually they apply to both sides. But to get some Numbers for perspective:

A UCM 6400 Massdriver deals an average off 2 Damage against a 4+ armour ship, 3+ armour reduces this only to 1,78.
A Cobra Laser deals roughly 2,88 against 4+ armour targets and 2,76 against 3+ armour.

In my opinion the superior form of protection are shields as they protect also from crits which often are a main source of damage.

The 6400 Massdriver deals only 1,33 against Shields, while the Laser deals only 1,61. So Shields are clearly the superior form of protection compared to armour which does not help that much against most main weapon systems. Of course there are some where it helps let´s look at the Light Broadside.

Against 5+ Armour a light broadside deals 2,66 damage on average (assuming it is not a light target) while this drops to 2, respectively 1,34 against 4+ and 3+ armour.

Lastly we have some weapons that flat out ignore armour namely Lances, fortunately for armour aside from the Diamond most ships carrying those are overpriced.


To conclude about armour I think it is not very relevant as long as the most dominant weapon systems rely on crits for their performance as this mechanic ignores armour. Only if you can apply negative modifiers on the enemy weapon systems or they are lock 5+ or worse, armour actually matters.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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