It is currently Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:19 am


Void Gates are still too good.

Discuss tactics and general fleet concepts not specific to a faction
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

Stompzilla

  • Posts: 1076
  • Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 pm
  • Location: Manchester, UK

Void Gates are still too good.

PostWed Jan 03, 2018 1:43 pm

I'm sorry but they are.

15 pts for a risk free flying defence battery with a 5+AA shot that moves as fast as a gargoyle, with a 1" SIG and PD that puts PHR cruisers to shame?

Yes, yes, I get that you also have to invest in the mothership too, and a mother ship and 3 vgs costs more than 4 New Orleans but let's be honest here, the vgs/mother ship are much better than 4 Strike Carriers.

To my mind, I wouldn't want to see points go up - Shaltari ships are expensive enough as it is and variety and enjoyment of playing the faction would suffer, if there was any significant increase in cost. Same goes for making them easier to kill - they'll just get spammed even more.

No, the thing that gets most complained about at the tabletop and the thing that I feel most dirty about, is the defence battery. Not only do Hogs have a great system of delivering troops with much less risk than everybody else, the opponents have to bring 1/3 more drop capacity to stand a chance.

The last game I played, my opponent very skillfully managed to get a San Fran into position to drop troops turn 4 of a game of power grab (After losing both Madrid's and it's sister San Fran on the approach) and he was rewarded with a big fat f&ck you by me rolling 2x5s with my Void Gate Batteries. To me, that's just bullshit. What was shaping up to be a really good game became something of a white wash from that point forwards.

Does the VG really need a battery built in? Could we just get rid of that function altogether? Or if not, what about making it dependent on having a number of VGs over a cluster? E.g. you need 3 vgs within 6" of a cluster to form a battery? As a Shaltari admiral I would hardly find this change crippling and would not feel like I have an unfair advantage every drop phase.
Offline

Takxis

  • Posts: 34
  • Joined: Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:57 am
  • Location: Newcastle NSW

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostWed Jan 03, 2018 8:07 pm

the only problem is that the 'defence gun' does not work in orbit. i already have found (as a Shaltari player) that in scenarios with stations, it is much harder to win as troop carriers can out land a mother ship and gated hands down.
My experience is that i seem never to roll the required number to stop anyone landing as well.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 7:41 am

Stompzilla wrote:I'm sorry but they are.

15 pts for a risk free flying defence battery with a 5+AA shot that moves as fast as a gargoyle, with a 1" SIG and PD that puts PHR cruisers to shame?

Yes, yes, I get that you also have to invest in the mothership too, and a mother ship and 3 vgs costs more than 4 New Orleans but let's be honest here, the vgs/mother ship are much better than 4 Strike Carriers.

To my mind, I wouldn't want to see points go up - Shaltari ships are expensive enough as it is and variety and enjoyment of playing the faction would suffer, if there was any significant increase in cost. Same goes for making them easier to kill - they'll just get spammed even more.

No, the thing that gets most complained about at the tabletop and the thing that I feel most dirty about, is the defence battery. Not only do Hogs have a great system of delivering troops with much less risk than everybody else, the opponents have to bring 1/3 more drop capacity to stand a chance.

The last game I played, my opponent very skillfully managed to get a San Fran into position to drop troops turn 4 of a game of power grab (After losing both Madrid's and it's sister San Fran on the approach) and he was rewarded with a big fat f&ck you by me rolling 2x5s with my Void Gate Batteries. To me, that's just bullshit. What was shaping up to be a really good game became something of a white wash from that point forwards.

Does the VG really need a battery built in? Could we just get rid of that function altogether? Or if not, what about making it dependent on having a number of VGs over a cluster? E.g. you need 3 vgs within 6" of a cluster to form a battery? As a Shaltari admiral I would hardly find this change crippling and would not feel like I have an unfair advantage every drop phase.


First I generally agree. VGs are too good IF they are spammed but that also comes with some other issues of Shaltari - it is more like a combination of stuffs than the VGs themself. Motherships can be kept incredible save with some approaches that Hawk didn't think through I guess... low signature is the one thing but, Debrisjumping is another one and in addition Shaltari have huge threatranges that they can dictate the game when having dropadvantage making it an uphill battle for the opponent.

Back to the VG - I think the Battery is not the real issue but it strike people very hard mentally because of such occurences that you describe. It leaves the feeling that you cannot do anything against it, even though it is just bad luck. I also think that removing the Defense Battery is a bad idea - if so they need another possibility to drop those. But this would also lead to even more VG spamming as your Idea would as well.

Another good idea I heard would be to only allow VGs shooting down troops (one time?!) per turn _instead_ of dropping. Of course this wouldn't prevent spamming as well...

Another possibility which I personally like while most people do not would be to drasticly change Voidgates by making them tougher again (3HP) but also increasing their Pointcosts by a relatively big margin. If you prevent spamming the Voidgates get much more valuable and you really need to think about where they need to be and you cannot just bring a 15 Pts battery to any cluster without using a bigger amount of ressources.

Last thing I definetly include is that gates should not be allowed to shoot down stuff in the first turn they reached the cluster - that's by far the biggest advantage of the rule right now.

But overall I think we need to look at Shaltari overall because the problem right now is the combination of several things that might not be problematic on their own but are in combination - that's Hawk should take care not to nerf too much.
Offline

Stompzilla

  • Posts: 1076
  • Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 pm
  • Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 11:18 am

Making it a cumulative ability seems like it solves all the issues to me.

If you don't commit 3 to a cluster you're getting no battery. If the opponent kills one of the 3 he can stop the battery - making it worth actually shooting some down.

If the opponent doesn't need to bring 1/3 more drop assets than the Shaltari, then things balance up a lot better. Shaltari fleets do have that range advantage and its easier for them to drop but they do tend to have fewer ships due to the cost of the good ones and generally need to spend more on fewer drop assets.

The trade off is supposed to be a safer and more reliable transit method but with fewer assets. The problem though is that the transit method is safer but because your opponent loses 1/3 of anything they drop into sectors with even just 1 VG nearby, they are not getting more drop assets in practice, so there is no trade off. In practice the Shaltari get safer transit and the same, if not more drop capacity!

It's the ability to neutralise 1/3 of all of your opponent's drops that really makes them too good IMO. It's quantifiable and 1/3 is a massive fucking percentage that your opponent is getting screwed by.
Last edited by Stompzilla on Thu Jan 04, 2018 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
Offline
User avatar

BlackLegion

  • Posts: 802
  • Joined: Wed May 14, 2014 10:33 pm
  • Location: Leipzig, Germany

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 11:21 am

What about if Emeralds get spikes for launching when they teleport troops through Void gates?
Offline

Stompzilla

  • Posts: 1076
  • Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 pm
  • Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 11:30 am

They do currently.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 1:54 pm

Stompzilla wrote:Making it a cumulative ability seems like it solves all the issues to me.

If you don't commit 3 to a cluster you're getting no battery. If the opponent kills one of the 3 he can stop the battery - making it worth actually shooting some down.

If the opponent doesn't need to bring 1/3 more drop assets than the Shaltari, then things balance up a lot better. Shaltari fleets do have that range advantage and its easier for them to drop but they do tend to have fewer ships due to the cost of the good ones and generally need to spend more on fewer drop assets.

The trade off is supposed to be a safer and more reliable transit method but with fewer assets. The problem though is that the transit method is safer but because your opponent loses 1/3 of anything they drop into sectors with even just 1 VG nearby, they are not getting more drop assets in practice, so there is no trade off. In practice the Shaltari get safer transit and the same, if not more drop capacity!

It's the ability to neutralise 1/3 of all of your opponent's drops that really makes them too good IMO. It's quantifiable and 1/3 is a massive fucking percentage that your opponent is getting screwed by.


Actually my current lists do not have problems supplying 3 Gates per cluster even in Take&Hold - imho this only shifts the meta for Shaltari more in favor of a lot of Gates. I don't see a real change for maxed out spamlists while it weakens more allrounded fleets - not what we need!

I also do not think Shaltari have really less captial ships. If i compare e.g. the standard list of a friend I regularly play against he brings 8 capital ships (including 2 relatively useless Troopships concerning fighting) and I bring 7 (including motherships that fight really well) I also get in 13 launch while he brings 15...

1/3 is of course good but it is as good because you can cheaply supply it everywhere while stil having other advantages. If you cannot spam gates anymore (e.g. increase hull to 3 and make them 25 Pts each. Instead of 18 Gates i can only bring 10 - it suddenly gets much more relevant where I put those gates, getting gate networks, guarding them and the loss of single gates is much more relevant while it also reduces the number of viable Motherships is reduced (or you just bring much less force in Orbit). With 18 Gates I just spam them onto all those clusters and that is where the Charged really gets ugly because I can just wait for the outcome and drop to my advantage at nearly all clusters. If I cannot do that because of less gates it suddenly gets much more even.
Offline

Stompzilla

  • Posts: 1076
  • Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 pm
  • Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 2:28 pm

If we see the decent, missing-link Destroyers that I think we both want and believe the game needs, then drop spam will go away on its own.

Even, in the current meta, without destroyers - if you supply 3 VGs to each cluster, the opposition only needs to take out 1 at the locations they want to drop at and the ability goes away, with my suggested change.

Also, 18 VGs? Seriously dude, that is taking the absolute piss! :mrgreen: :lol:

I run 12 with 3 Emeralds and the ground game is never even close, although I do accept that the UK scene is much lighter on drop (A mistake IMO) than the German one.

Shaltari drop is way expensive, as it is. Those 12 VGs and 3 Emeralds already account for more than 1/3 of my points. Not including the single drop the BB gets, it's 53.3 pts per tank dropped (Admittedly with a redundancy of 3 spare gates, without that it's still 48.3 pts per token), compared with 32-39 for the other factions and troopships are even better value, in terms of pts per counter. Additionally, other faction's Strike Carriers can score CLs and active scan.

No, I really don't think Shaltari drop should get even more expensive. I'd just like to see them toned down a bit and the trade-off actually be something that carries a disadvantage, as well as an advantage.

In terms of front line capital ships I have 3, with the remaining 4 being support ships that are OK at fighting. Compared with my current Scourge list, the Scourge have an absolute ton more fighting ships.

Space battles tend to be pretty even but on the ground is always a huge uphill battle for my opponents, because 1/3 of their assets count for sod all.

The only other option in my mind is to set a hard limit on the number of drop you're allowed to bring. Not a great option IMO.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 246
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 4:08 pm

Stompzilla wrote:Even, in the current meta, without destroyers - if you supply 3 VGs to each cluster, the opposition only needs to take out 1 at the locations they want to drop at and the ability goes away, with my suggested change.


Do you really think that makes any significant change? With voidgate spam I can even supply more than 3 to the clusters my opponen obviously wants to focus on. To kill VGs reliably he also needs (subpar) corvettes. I really do not see how this will work out well - and even if you loose the charged air on one or two clusters during the course of the game it'll have still done its damage.
Of course a buff to corvettes would change that but then we would have to worry much less about VGs in general and the whole thing would need another closer look again.

Stompzilla wrote:Also, 18 VGs? Seriously dude, that is taking the absolute piss! :mrgreen: :lol:


No reason to take less when playing competitvely to be honest. I even think about some more.

Stompzilla wrote:I run 12 with 3 Emeralds and the ground game is never even close, although I do accept that the UK scene is much lighter on drop (A mistake IMO) than the German one.


That might be the reason. Most competitive players here use at least 10+ drop and I really think against certain lists on certain scenarios 12 gates run into problems quickly (Station Assault).

Stompzilla wrote:Shaltari drop is way expensive, as it is. Those 12 VGs and 3 Emeralds already account for more than 1/3 of my points. Not including the single drop the BB gets, it's 53.3 pts per tank dropped (Admittedly with a redundancy of 3 spare gates, without that it's still 48.3 pts per token), compared with 32-39 for the other factions and troopships are even better value, in terms of pts per counter. Additionally, other faction's Strike Carriers can score CLs and active scan.


Yes it is very expensive but what most people do not see is that Motherships are quite good fighters too IF you bring more of them. E.g. I really like running 4 Emeralds and depending on the opponents list and the state of the game I can both use them as fighting vessels or stay back at first until I gain the advantage on the ground and they can get those crits as well. That's another thing that only works out IF you bring a reasonable amount of them - If you e.g. play 2 Motherships you just need to keep them save no matter what against decent opponents. If you have 4 you can bring in those 24 4+ shots because it is not that big of a deal loosing one or sometimes even two emeralds - they can also be a very nice bait.
Overall I think the higher cost just reduces the opportunities for listbuilding but it works out fine as you get much more for the Pts than your opponent does for his strikecraft. (Station assault might be an exception again because those strikecarriers can get relatively ugly).

Stompzilla wrote:No, I really don't think Shaltari drop should get even more expensive. I'd just like to see them toned down a bit and the trade-off actually be something that carries a disadvantage, as well as an advantage.


I get your point but I don't see how this can be solved without just favoring voidgate spam even more. E.g. your 12 gate list gets much weaker when your rule would be installed while 18-20 gates do not suffer nearly as much.
Also when looking at my example (Point costs would be of course something to need finetuning) you do not really reduce the drop of shaltari - 10 Drop is still very easy to achieve (13 is also playable with bigger downsides as before). The only thing is that you do not have redundant gates flying around everywhere... this would be compensated by more survivability but you need to take much harder choices AND you do not supply tons of 5+ atmospheric shots.
Imho it would tone down shaltari superiority in groundbases scenarios while Station heavy scenarios, where they are weaker are not changed as much.

Stompzilla wrote:In terms of front line capital ships I have 3, with the remaining 4 being support ships that are OK at fighting. Compared with my current Scourge list, the Scourge have an absolute ton more fighting ships.


May I ask which ships you bring? Here I have to again talk about Emeralds. E.g. I generally run 3-4 Emeralds 1 Diamond and 2 Ambers. 2 heavy hitting BGs while those Emeralds are really great damage dealers as well! 100 Pts 6x4+ on any order with 9 hull and shields if necessary. Yes Scourge ships are on paper stronger fighters but shaltari outrange them, do not need as much WF (which is a pain in the ass for Scourge imho).

Stompzilla wrote:Space battles tend to be pretty even but on the ground is always a huge uphill battle for my opponents, because 1/3 of their assets count for sod all.


That really depends on the lists... but I usually get the upper hand in Orbit _because_ the groundgame is so strong. Staying out of range picking targets when I want because most of the time I can sit back and let the groundgame work for me. It's hard to tell from afar but usually I have the feeling that a lot of shalari use their ships too offensively instead of sitting back and using the debris.

Stompzilla wrote:The only other option in my mind is to set a hard limit on the number of drop you're allowed to bring. Not a great option IMO.


That's where we agree completely! I think actually that this would even help Shaltari and Buff PHR by a lot... it is just a balancing mess and to be honest I also do not think restricting the game won't help but instead would reduce interest as competitive lists would always just get to the max amount. Instead I'd rather build in efficient counters... but that's what we talked about before in some other Threads ;)
Offline

Stompzilla

  • Posts: 1076
  • Joined: Tue Sep 30, 2014 2:34 pm
  • Location: Manchester, UK

Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 4:53 pm

The list I currently use is:

--------------------------------------
1,250 Stomptari - 1235pts
Shaltari - 4 launch assets

SR16 Flag battlegroup (330pts)
1 x Diamond - 290pts - S
   + Starchief (80pts, 4AV)
1 x Opal - 40pts - L

SR10 Line battlegroup (200pts)
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M

SR10 Line battlegroup (220pts)
2 x Amber - 220pts - M

SR6 Line battlegroup (185pts)
1 x Basalt - 145pts - M
1 x Opal - 40pts - L

SR9 Pathfinder battlegroup (135pts)
3 x Voidgate - 45pts - L
3 x Voidgate - 45pts - L
3 x Voidgate - 45pts - L

SR8 Pathfinder battlegroup (145pts)
3 x Voidgate - 45pts - L
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M
------------- dflist.com -------------

(I know I have enough pts for 1 more VG but I don't have the model and tbh, 12 has always been plenty).

I tend to hang back, active scan with the Opals (And sometimes the Basalt), get the first shots and smash a few key ships (Last game I played, it was 2xMadrid and a San Fran) before going shields up and using fighters and Opals to weather return fire. Once I'm happy with the ground, I bring the Emeralds and Basalt forwards too. From the sounds of it, we play a similar game.

My opponents rarely spend the same amount of points on drop as I do, so that will have an effect for sure.

You make some good points as always and I'm making some BIG assumptions. IF we get good Destroyers, that will make drop spam less prevalent because people will need to invest more points into LO to defend their destroyers and to crash through the opposing fleet to kill their destroyers (As well as the cost of the destroyers). The problem largely goes away on its own.

Now, if we assume that this actually happens, the multiple VGs to form a battery idea works well. If we don't get good destroyers, I'd personally, rather see the Battery function disappear from VGs, rather than a price rise which would reduce variation in fleets and list building, which already are starting to look pretty samey. So you could still take your 18 gates and 10 drop but at least your opponent isn't down on drop assets by 1/3 straight off the bat, as well as giving a very minor boost to troopships who become the sole source of defence batteries.
Next

Return to General Tactics and Fleet Building Ideas

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron