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Void Gates are still too good.

Discuss tactics and general fleet concepts not specific to a faction
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 7:50 pm

I see your point about destroyers (and I'd like to see better corvettes as well - I guess we both do).
However if this is not the case removing the charged air completely is not a good idea imho as Shaltari will get overrun by e.g. Troopshipheavy PHR lists. Removing the possibility to shoot down Groundassets from one Faction completely (that already has only a 5+ against Troopships) is not a good idea I think.

Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 1:50 am

I agree that Voidgates are still too good. I like the idea that you need 3 to get the defence battery bonus. Combine that with anti atmo destroyers and we might be in a good place. I could also see Voidgates getting a boost in points cost, maybe 18 if they need 3 to defend.
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Stompzilla

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Shikatanai wrote:Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)


The Basalt is a recent addition. It's an ultimate support ship, active scanning and providing fighter support for the shielded bruisers and comes forwards later in the game much like Emeralds. I've been super impressed with the Basalt the last couple of games.

Previously I had 2 Turquoise and no Opals but I think I like this version better.

Lol, they do indeed! Although Charlie who won the Midlands Maelstrom had a pretty unique take on the Shaltari
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 2:29 pm

Stompzilla wrote:
Shikatanai wrote:Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)


The Basalt is a recent addition. It's an ultimate support ship, active scanning and providing fighter support for the shielded bruisers and comes forwards later in the game much like Emeralds. I've been super impressed with the Basalt the last couple of games.

Previously I had 2 Turquoise and no Opals but I think I like this version better.

Lol, they do indeed! Although Charlie who won the Midlands Maelstrom had a pretty unique take on the Shaltari


Try out another Emerald instead of the Basalt - you'll love it :P
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Stompzilla

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 2:38 pm

I like the variety too much.

Also the look on PHR player's faces when they launch masses of bombers against shielded Ambers/Diamond and come away with next to nothing is priceless! :lol:

I can quite often get 2 scans out of that battle group too, which is nice.
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Eddieddi

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 6:49 am

I know it might not be a 'good' solution, But what about giving the Shaltari the ability to chose to either drop troops or do charged air? fits in with the 3 VG needed to use it, but gives a player the option to park a VG over a cluster and just be a pain in the neck (Which I have always felt is part of the Shaltari's style). I know it dosn't solve the vg spam but it might make them 'weaker'.
THe other option is giving Shaltari a second 'void gate' one that can't drop, but is capable of using charged air, and has a bit better in atomo combat.

The issue however (In my opinion) Is much deeper in the system, and honestly has something to do with the whole 'drop' mechanic. A competitive list has to have lots of drop, The shaltari drop is very void gate heavy. to get 'optimum' drop out of a mother-ship you need 4 voidgates. This means that in a vaguely competitive list, the minimum void gates is about 12. Unless you 1) increase the void gate drop capacity 2) fully re-work the drop mechanics for shaltari you will always have the issue.
What about this for a solution: Void gates get a drop of 2, so you reduce the maximum needed for optimum capacity, And then increase the points. This also means you no longer have the requirement for quite so meany 'redundant' void gates.

The other issue is the 'fragility' of voidgates, With the 2 hull I have found that my VG tend to explode very fast. even in atmo they evaporate. So I take lots of redundancies. leaving me with little to no points left for 'flexible' groups. so the game devolves in to a game of 'wack the void gate' for my foe. while I just pick off key ships with my 1 or 2 super heavy hitting groups.

I don't have a solution to this, as 3 hull void gates as we know are very strong. Maybe giving them 4 hull, and cause using charged air cost 1 hull? so, you call 'charged air' deal 1 damage to the void gate (no save) and that voidgate has charged air for the rest of the turn. unless it is destroyed. given the above change and a substantial points increase, it could make voidgates far more valuable and a much more tactical decision rather than just "Yup, pack 16 of those in to my list so that I can get all my drop down and deny the enemey."
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 7:27 am

Eddieddi wrote:I know it might not be a 'good' solution, But what about giving the Shaltari the ability to chose to either drop troops or do charged air? fits in with the 3 VG needed to use it, but gives a player the option to park a VG over a cluster and just be a pain in the neck (Which I have always felt is part of the Shaltari's style). I know it dosn't solve the vg spam but it might make them 'weaker'.

The thing is that exactly this is why it is so strong. You do not suffer from supplying 15 or even 30 Pts without dropping anything while chipping some damage, shooting down drop and than being able to react while dropping yourself. Sometimes it just needs some lucky 5s to completely change the game because you are able to just counter drop a cluster when it gets weak by charged air.

Eddieddi wrote:The issue however (In my opinion) Is much deeper in the system, and honestly has something to do with the whole 'drop' mechanic. A competitive list has to have lots of drop, The shaltari drop is very void gate heavy. to get 'optimum' drop out of a mother-ship you need 4 voidgates. This means that in a vaguely competitive list, the minimum void gates is about 12. Unless you 1) increase the void gate drop capacity 2) fully re-work the drop mechanics for shaltari you will always have the issue.
What about this for a solution: Void gates get a drop of 2, so you reduce the maximum needed for optimum capacity, And then increase the points. This also means you no longer have the requirement for quite so meany 'redundant' void gates.


I think we need to differentiate here. Yes all lists that are competitive include a lot of strikecraft - but that's not the problem with gates. The Problem is that they are just too good for what they do compared to other factions.
Giving them a drop of 2 sounds not bad but brings in a lot of other problems. They need to be much more costly but do not fit very well with the amount of drop Motherships supply... I think this would create other problems.

Eddieddi wrote:The other issue is the 'fragility' of voidgates, With the 2 hull I have found that my VG tend to explode very fast. even in atmo they evaporate. So I take lots of redundancies. leaving me with little to no points left for 'flexible' groups. so the game devolves in to a game of 'wack the void gate' for my foe. while I just pick off key ships with my 1 or 2 super heavy hitting groups.


Just out of interest: From what do you frequently loose gates? Yeah some of them might pop but they are not much less stable than other strikecarriers (except PHR ofc) especially since their PD is much more reliable against Corvettes. Yes you need some redundancies but imho not more than other factions and they pay double for it...
Yes Shaltari lists are not that flexible right now but that also comes down to other choices... a lot of them just suck setting a competitive Standard. In addition other factions are also quite set cause they need to bring even more drop capability to stand a chance against Shaltari, they are just more flexible in how they do it and how they fill the rest - it's just internal balancing.

Eddieddi wrote:I don't have a solution to this, as 3 hull void gates as we know are very strong. Maybe giving them 4 hull, and cause using charged air cost 1 hull? so, you call 'charged air' deal 1 damage to the void gate (no save) and that voidgate has charged air for the rest of the turn. unless it is destroyed. given the above change and a substantial points increase, it could make voidgates far more valuable and a much more tactical decision rather than just "Yup, pack 16 of those in to my list so that I can get all my drop down and deny the enemey."


I agree that VGs should get more costly while getting also more sustain. It will make a a huge difference if you suddenly only have like 2/3 of VGs or need to reduce the Orbit firepower even more. Don't like the exchange of charged air against hull though in combination with it.
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Admiral JCJF

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostMon Jan 22, 2018 5:46 am

I must say, drop OR charged air sounds better and better the more often I consider it.
Why would we waste words on Prey?
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Eddieddi

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostSat Jan 27, 2018 2:30 am

Shikatanai wrote:The thing is that exactly this is why it is so strong. You do not suffer from supplying 15 or even 30 Pts without dropping anything while chipping some damage, shooting down drop and than being able to react while dropping yourself. Sometimes it just needs some lucky 5s to completely change the game because you are able to just counter drop a cluster when it gets weak by charged air.


As, I said, What about a second 'void gate' that has the charged air option, like a cross between the glass and the void gate, something that can do that, BUT cannot drop, and then maybe say void gates MUST stay within the daisy chain? and if they are out of the daisy chain for more than 2 turns they 'lose power' and can't move or do anything till they get reconnected?


Shikatanai wrote:I think we need to differentiate here. Yes all lists that are competitive include a lot of strikecraft - but that's not the problem with gates. The Problem is that they are just too good for what they do compared to other factions.
Giving them a drop of 2 sounds not bad but brings in a lot of other problems. They need to be much more costly but do not fit very well with the amount of drop Motherships supply... I think this would create other problems.


While I disagree they are 'too good' I feel that they need to be retooled. they lack the direct ground support of the PHR, and the scald/'ok' damage of the Scourge. they fill the roll of defence lasers of other factions. I mean, If I as the PHR dropped a defence laser on every location, it'd be just as difficult. I still like the 'You can drop or charged air' option the most.
the point of giving them 2 drop is deliberately to mis-align them with the motherships supply to force to players to play more tactically.

Shikatanai wrote:
Just out of interest: From what do you frequently loose gates? Yeah some of them might pop but they are not much less stable than other strikecarriers (except PHR ofc) especially since their PD is much more reliable against Corvettes. Yes you need some redundancies but imho not more than other factions and they pay double for it...
Yes Shaltari lists are not that flexible right now but that also comes down to other choices... a lot of them just suck setting a competitive Standard. In addition other factions are also quite set cause they need to bring even more drop capability to stand a chance against Shaltari, they are just more flexible in how they do it and how they fill the rest - it's just internal balancing.


Really depends on who I'm playing, one of my mates plays PHR and they mostly evaporate to 12 shot light broadsides at 5+ getting slung at them from one layer above, however my scourge buddy just eats them with corvettes if my glass don't get in the way. It really depends.
Its not just 'paying double' I played a Shaltari VS. UCM game a little while back, at 1250 games (No BB because neither of us had the models with us.) and He took 2 of the drop crusiers (San fran? I don't play ucm.) and 4 strike carriers. which totes up about 350, I took 3 emeralds and 12 vg. giving me about 480 points, for only 1 more drop.
I think the other big issue is players trying to 'counter' the drop by killing off void gates, He used 2 light crusers to eat a emerald before they exploded, crippled my entire game. Maybe if they solved the whole 'emerald in a debris field' trick?


Shikatanai wrote:I agree that VGs should get more costly while getting also more sustain. It will make a a huge difference if you suddenly only have like 2/3 of VGs or need to reduce the Orbit firepower even more. Don't like the exchange of charged air against hull though in combination with it.

Its options right? you can do one, or all of them. Another idea I had a while back was giving charged air a limit, like 'you may only activate it 3 times per mother ship. Which means, if you want to park that void gate over the enemy cluster and be a dick about it, that's fine, but it means that you are using up your charged air 'charges' not defending the 'contested' cluster.
but the more and more I look at it, I like the 'charged air, OR drop' option. but I feel that will lead to MORE void gate spam. again, I feel like the issue is deeper set than just 'voidgates op, plz nerf' You could nerf them in to oblivion, I mean, remove charged air, give them 1 hull and 6 up armor saves, and I would still take 12-16 of them in my list, if not more, just because they are so critical to my capacity to win.

Another idea is that you treat them like tokens. a bit like torps. When a mother ship 'drops' it spawns 3 void gates that have to get to location, and drop in to atmosphere, they can hover round for as long as they like, but they can't do anything (beyond the 1 dice 5 up attack). they can be attacked ect ect. so it becomes less 'wack the void gate' and 'prevent those dam 'drop ships' from getting to the point'
It would also penalize the whole 'mothership in a debris field' trick seeing as spawning the void gate would subject it to the debris damage. and it would push shaltari players to move their motherships forwards, putting them at risk. Actually, I really am starting to like that idea. Opinion?
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