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Destroyer rules are up!

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Gauntlet

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Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 2:32 pm

I just read through the Scourge and UCM... Go to the TTCombat store entries for links...

I'm loving the UCM... Am I reading right that the torpedo may not be limited in shots lol? Might be a oversight...
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BlackLegion

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 3:22 pm

UCM: The only destroyer with an atmospheric ranged weapon (and fusilade 1). A Launch 2 destroyer and one with a light torpedo and good CAW.
Scourge: 2x Occulus beams, BTL or Launch 1. The last two with occulus rays, All have good CAW (the launch one even better) and the option for Partial Cloak and Stealth.
PHR: Bulklander 1 and 1 x heavy caliber or 2 x twin heavy caliber. Both have blokale runner variants which exchange 1x twin heavy caliber for higher speed, lower signature and better CAW. The non lander blokade runner has atmospheric on its CAW.
Shaltati: A Gate 1, a cap 3 BTL or a Mauler (4) variant.
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Gauntlet

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 5:13 pm

So Andy Chambers has clarified the UCM light torpedo destroyer is meant to be limited 2.

So a pair of these could fire two volleys of 6 damage... Could use them each on different targets so perhaps firing upon four frigates... Pretty nasty idea.

The Scourge with launch, CAW and some Oculus with partial cloak and stealth is kind of amazing.

PHR bulk lander with move 12? Damn.
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Lorn

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 7:50 pm

I am at loss for words to describe my dislike for the balance of destroyers both internally among them and externally against other ships.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Gauntlet

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 8:15 pm

Well I'm certainly interested in hearing them when you find them.

Nothing's set in stone with the rules obviously, but if the Centurion is anything to gauge things by... something will change before semi-permanent rules are done/printed/sold.
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Lorn

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 9:20 pm

Well the Kiev is a pocket BTL, it has the firepower of a Occulus beam array, or a UF-6400 Massdriver, or a Disintergrator Battery on standard orders. On Weapons free it can add 50% to that thus deal more damage then a Cobra Laser except against 3+ and 2+ armour where it is slightly behind the Cobra. Yet it has a better arc then a Cobra and is cheaper.
This would be bearable if it was not also Atmospheric and which is better then Air-to-Air as you also add the target sig (unless you are a close action weapon).
The only bad thing about his ship is the fact that I cannot play only with those as they eat light slots and are G 1-2.

So we get a ship that is as deadly as a new cairo, but less durable, which is compensated by a price decrease that also has a very important special ability namely atmospheric. Even without that it would be a very good ship with that it is gamebreakinly good.

I thought anti-atmospheric ships would not also be amazing damage dealers outside of it. As it effectively replaces everything the UCM has in the L slot that is not a Strike Carrier. The other 2 UCM Destroyers do not even come close to this and one of them costs more points, the other has a Torpedo split in half, a weapon system that does not work at all in the game.


Exhibit B is the Incubis another pocket BTL, in this case literally it fields the Scourge Cruisers BTL and a Occulus Beam.
Meaning it also deals Cruiser type damage on standard orders. Yet the poor Succubus is the answer to the question "Could the Harpy be worse?" it has the same price and deals less damage on weapons free then the Inccubus on standard Orders.
And while some people like the Revenant gameplaywise it is meh, it is a Djinn that has a bomber squadron and cannot go into atmosphere, oh and it is slower which is bad for CAW ships.


The Shaltari are mostly meh, though I am certain that the Cobalt is not any form of an alternative to the Emerald not even a supplementary one, two of them are more expensive then an Emerald yet only have 2/3 of the drop and similar fire power. The other two are nothing special not to terrible but nothing that really was missing either.
Both Scourge and Shaltari are missing out on the important ability of Atmospheric though, which shifts the balance considerably in the UCMs favour.


Lastly PHR, I fail to see the point of the Blockade runners. They are fast, the Odysseus is to brittle to be used over contested clusters and nearly unarmed. So I don´t know what the speed is supposed to accomplish on that ship. The Jason has Atmospheric but it will take 2 of them to have a decent chance to kill a strike carrier. Which is 130P the gun is not terrible but the multitasking requires it to be rather close to the cluster and if one would want to kill strike carriers even the Echo is better and it is the worst Strike carrier killer in atmo among the Corvettes.
The Adirane is the only Destroyer that I find somewhat well balanced, it is suited for rear duty if you want to leave behind a troop landing ship to secure a cluster but a Troopship is too expensive and I could see myself including 1 or 2 of them in a list, it is neither to strong nor terrible.
The Electra is far from the broken territory but not terrible, the weapons free hurts but it has decent front fire power.




So mostly there are 2 ships that are far too good the Kiev and the Inccubus with he former also being the only decent anti-atmospheric ship among the release which is also a major disappointment. People who disliked the deadliness of the system will not be happy about the Kiev and the Inccubus as they increase that factor beyond the current level. As the have more fire power per point and are more brittle themselves. This is not a Beta it is an Alpha Rule test at best.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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BlackLegion

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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 10:45 pm

I really think that the Incubus should have only half the maximum damage (4 and 2 respectively) of a full Furnace Cannon. After all it has only one barrel. The bigger size could be a good reason to give it Atmospheric on the lock 2+ firing mode.

Similar for the Mercury as the ionising effect of its Pulse Ionizer Bank could serve as an explanation to get atmospheric as well.
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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostFri Apr 13, 2018 11:33 pm

Overall I like them, but am a tad disappointed with some of the rules:

Vancouver
While it doesn't look like much, the Vancouver is actually an AMAZING Carrier. In terms of points per launch asset, it's actually the second most efficient right behind the Hydra, only paying 31 points per launch asset compared to the Hydra's 28 per asset. For reference, the third most efficient, the Basalt, is about 36 points per launch asset, the New York is 4th at 37 points per launch asset, and the Seattle comes in 7th at 44 points per launch asset (albeit with a main gun).

Overall, I'd consider the Vancouver to be amazingly efficient at getting launch assets onto the board, which is very nice for the UCM considering how lackluster their launch asset's actual stats are.

Havana
Also a very good one; from what I can tell, it's effectively an up-hulled Taipei that gives up some CAW capability in exchange for more hull, its torpedoes, and a slightly worse sig, all for an extra 10 points. Even with their light torpedoes being only 3 damage, I'm feeling they'll find an excellent use in clearing away large swathes of enemy frigates; with each torpedo being likely to do at least 2 damage to 4+ and up armor, a squadron of three Havanas can potentially clear away three frigates per turn, not even counting their CAW. With CAW, it's brought up to about four and a half non-PHR frigates per turn, per three Havanas. Obviously the matchup is a bit poorer against PHR, coming out to about two and three quarters PHR frigates per turn.

Kiev
The Kiev is absolute insane, in all honesty. For 26 points less than the Osaka, it gets the same damage on standard orders (albeit in F arc only), a better sig, better armor, but worse hull and thrust. Its more a regular cruiser body with much less hull, worse CAW, but better signature.
As for its weapon, it's horribly efficient for how much damage it can put out, being ever so slightly more efficient than even the New Cairo, of all things. Fusillade just adds to this even further, and a ship this small being able to put out battleship's main guns worth of firepower on weapons free is ridiculous.
I'd recommend it losing Fusillade entirely, and going up to at least 65 points or so.

Succubus
I'm kind of unimpressed? It's a slightly more visible, slightly slower, but much tougher Harpy with somewhat better CAW. The extra firepower on weapons free is nice, but overall it just seems to be more of a sidegrade, rather than a direct upgrade worth of the price increase. I know one of the major ideas behind Destroyers was that you'd need to go Weapons Free to use them effectively, but the Succubus really feels like it'd just be better served if its price were increased to something like 60 or 65, and if both the Oculus Beams were combined into a singular Oculus Beam Array, as a sort of direct upgrade between the Harpy and the Yokai, to continue the Scourge's rather steady line of gunships.

Incubus
Pretty much the Scourge's version of the Kiev; an amazing amount of firepower on a cheap and small platform, far more so than I would expect on even a destroyer. I'm surprised that its weapon wasn't a Mauler of some kind, or at least a Light Furnace Cannon, but as a full powered furnace cannon I'd say it definitely needs to go up a few points. The fact that it only has Oculus Rays is a bit disappointing too, and I'd recommend upgrading those to Oculus Beams in addition to either downgrading the beam to something more reasonable, or pushing the price up some.

Revenant
As far as carriers go, it's incredibly inefficient, being the third most expensive per launch asset right after the Dragon and the Johannesburg, with the latter two having the added benefit of primary weapon systems. I'm at a bit of a loss as to why it has improved CAW despite no extra visible systems compared to the Succubus and the Incubus.
Overall, I don't really see a use for it; if I need launch assets, I'd take a Hydra. If I need CAW, I'd take Djinn or some Wyverns. It's a jack of all trades ship, which isn't inherently bad, but it's not an efficient jack of all trades ship. If I were to make any recommendations, it'd be to just reduce the CAW down to the level of the other two destroyers, upgrade its Oculus Rays to Oculus Beams like for the Incubus, as well as decrease the price to 50 or so, as then it'd be a little under the midpoint in terms of launch asset efficiency

Electra
Much better priced than the Kiev or the Incubus, I'm actually very impressed with the Electra in context of the PHR. Just as the PHR battlecruisers are to their light cruisers are to their frigates, their destroyers are to their cruisers. Better sig, worse hull and PD, but otherwise just a great escort to keep pace with the bigger ships. When compared to the Achilles or the Battleships, the Electra is amazingly efficient for its heavy guns even when not on weapons free, not to mention that they actually fire forward. A squadron of three of these would be a damn solid heavy cruiser and battlecruiser hunting wolfpack, and going weapons free gives them an effective signature of only 4" greater than a battleship, while putting out two battleship broadsides worth of firepower in their forward arc.

Ariadne
Similar to the Electra, I'm just glad the PHR are getting some troop options that actually challenge the assault troopship hegemony, but I'm a bit worried that this'll actually be too efficient compared to the Orpheus and Ganymede. For 130 points you can take two Ariadnes, or one Ganymede, each having equal troop capacity. The Ariadne's are slightly faster, slightly smaller, but a fair bit easier to kill. They do have superior firepower in the front arc compared to the Orpheus, but the Orpheus has a lot more utility with Flash. I'm not sure how exactly the balance between assault troopships and the Ariadne will be, but it seems relatively balanced.

Jason
I'm just going to consider the Jason a super-Echo, for all intents and purposes. Same sig, same thrust, same armor, same PD, three times the hull, and a little over twice the price. Against non-heavy targets, the Jason is a little bit less efficient with its guns than two Echos (but very, very little; about a sixth of a point of damage), and its CAW isn't as much a straight upgrade as one would think. Two echos will out damage a single Jason with their CAW, but Jason has the benefit of being able to attack from low orbit into atmosphere, meaning it can quickly skim over contested clusters to effectively do bombing runs on strike carriers. However, while two Jasons are enough to effectively destroy non-PHR frigates, four echos would be required to do the same, requiring the echos take up an extra Light slot.
Overall, the Jason actually seems to be ever so slightly less efficient than its points in Echos, but the ability to clear out atmospheric targets from low orbit (and thus keep moving, rather than having to take a turn to get back out of atmosphere like the Echo) makes it seem like a better choice to me.

Odysseus
Bit annoyed this doesn't have Kingfisher drones like the Jason, but overall, I think the same of the Odysseus as I do for the Ariadne. A lot more expensive for its troop compliment than its equivalent in assault troopships, and without the benefit of any serious weaponry of any kind, its speed is nonetheless immense for what it can do. I can see these being rushed forward to drop down defense batteries on centerline clusters before any other troop ships arrive. We'll have to see how the balance plays out, but I feel that its stats and price are in a somewhat good spot.

Chromium
I suppose I'm just a bit bored by this one. It's actually quite a bit better than the Pandora in terms of its beam damage, and the disruption beamers are a good secondary weapon. The price is right in my opinion, all the stats look good, it's basically just a slightly tougher Frigate with slightly worse Sig. It is unique, though, in that it's the only Shaltari ship which has flash; this utility coupled with their already impressive scan makes me think that it may actually be way more powerful than originally thought; in addition to it just being an efficient ship overall, just two of these effectively give the Shaltari a base scan of 24" against anything they hit; running two squadrons of these to mark and soften up targets while the rest of the Shaltari ships hang out in the backline (even moreso than usual) will be very effective, I'd say.

Mercury
The Mauler isn't actually as powerful as I first thought; it's a bit weaker than the UCM's Cobra against 3 armor targets (but still amazingly powerful for something on a destroyer), but really comes into its own against 2+ armor targets, doing nearly 3 damage on average per firing. With the upcoming (rumored) armor changes, I'm not sure how this'll work in terms of balance, but the numbers seem to say that it'll do absolute amazing at tearing apart bigger ships. Could probably do with being a little bit more expensive, but I have a feeling that these'll be an immense thorn in the side of PHR players.

Cobalt
It's a mini Emerald, really not too much to get into, here. Slightly faster in exchange for much less hull and PD, it's also far less efficient in cost for its troops, but the fact that it only takes light slots instead of medium slots will do a lot to help open up Shaltari fleet construction, rather than a mandatory 3 or 4 medium slots invariably being taken by motherships.


Overall, I'd rate the destroyers as the following:
Too Good; overly efficient or powerful:
Kiev
Incubus

Balanced, useful, but possibly unbalanced in a wider context
Chromium
Mercury

Balanced, useful, and interesting
Vancouver
Havana
Electra
Ariadne
Jason
Odysseus
Cobalt

Inefficient, boring, or just not all that useful
Succubus
Revenant

Overall I'm pretty happy with how must of the destroyers look, but the Kiev and Incubus definitely need to be trimmed down some, the Chromium and Mercury need to be watched carefully once released, and the Succubus and Revenant need to be beefed up a little bit in some way.
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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 8:01 am

Personally i think the Shaltari burn through Destroyer is going to be super useful. Potentially OTT. They can paint a ship up for long range damage, whilst plinking up to 3 damage each without needing to light themselves up.

The Incubus is a bit too good. A light burnthrough with reduced damage would be much more appropriate. To get a similar ability (Stealthed burn through) you would have to use a Raiju!

The Occulus one could get atmospheric and would be a great little ship.

The Kiev is a bit too good too.
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Re: Destroyer rules are up!

PostSat Apr 14, 2018 9:00 am

Succubus needs atmospheric IMHO. Would work well.

Kiev I like the concept of. However it has BB guns on a DD. That should tax its generators. Reduce attacks to 1 but up Fusilade to 2. Drop armour back to 4+. Now you have a great WF efficient ship able to really hunt but requiring clever play not to lose.

PHR need some work IMHO. Electra sits well enough and is an example of a well balanced ship IMHO. Ariadne is interesting and will be curious to see how they stack up against troopships.

Blockade runners are poor. Tbf Id consider giving the chin guns atmospheric also for PHR. They look turreted with nice depresion and rotation arcs.

In short the key thing DDs need to give is all races a reliable and efficient way to kill strike carrier spam. Let's see balanced fleets that need to FIGHT to establish the beach head.
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