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OPEN BETA feedback tread!

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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 7:07 am

Indeed as far as I am aware this is intentional.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Akdakkar

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 12:13 pm

Gonefishing wrote:
Akdakkar wrote:About sh gates: you need to assign the units that are going to use the gates before the game start. That means that units don't assign to enter via gate,enter on foot;and units assign to enter via gate have the risk to lost all the gates suitable to be used by thin units,then they are removed from game.



Looking into it, this is the way I understand it for Shaltari at the moment (which may be wrong as there is nothing explicit):

Transport rules:

CHOOSING DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Unit’s whose primary function is to carry other Units are chosen outside the normal Battlegroup structure. This allows them to swap Battlegroups during gameplay as requirements dictate. These Units are identified by their Category (‘Transport’). When choosing Transports, a player may take as many as they like in their army, with the following rules:

1. Each Transport chosen must be assigned to a starting Battlegroup when building your army and must start the game at maximum capacity (unless the rules state otherwise). It may change Battlegroup and does not have to be full in later turns.


The above does not apply fully to Shaltari - as gates don't have a capacity. I would surmise that only the first part of stage 1 applies, they just need to assign the gates to each BG in the list for the first turn, and for the first turn those gates can just be used by those Battlegroups.

The gate rules themselves state that gates act like transports with the following exceptions (nothing that overrides the rule above, so I would suggest the old gatepool no longer exists in the old sense).

Squads embarked in Gates aren’t counted as being inside a single transport. Instead they are counted as Dematerialised. To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! Embarking/ Disembarking otherwise follows the usual rules. This also means that Gates ignore the Destroyed Transports rules as they will never have anything inside. However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Any squads that start the game Dematerialised must be declared as such. Those squads may only arrive onto the battlefield by Materialising from a Gate.


What it does tell us is that any unit that wants to gate on, has to be declared as dematerialised at the start of the game and the only way for them to enter play is through a gate (a battlegroup however does not have to have a gate assigned to declare units dematerialised, but if none are assigned these units will not come on till turn 2 when the transports open up). Therefore, any unit that is not declared dematerialised will be a walk on unit.

The aerial advantage rule tells us:

In all games, Units not of the Type ‘Aircraft’ or starting the game aboard Transports of the Type ‘Aircraft’ automatically spend turn 1 in Reserve unless Directly Deployed, regardless of Approach type.

So, assumption here is that "Dematerialised" units are counted as being in Aircraft (technically they are), so can deploy as normal turn 1. The exception being units not aircraft or declared as dematerialised - who (as walk on units) would go into reserve.

The reserve rules now seem different in the fact that I can find no mention of rolling for arrival, as it stands it states:

In Reserve Units in Reserve are some distance from the Battlefield/ slow to arrive due to their lack of speed. Units in Reserve may not complete Actions until the scenario/ rules move them out of Reserve and into Readiness.

So, in the absence of scenario rules stating otherwise, I presume that a walk on unit move into readiness (and can come on) in turn 2 automatically, as aerial advantage only bans them for turn 1.

Once the Shaltari units are on the table (and Turn 1 has played), the gates become totally open again and can be assigned to any Battlegroup - as per:

When a player Activates a Battlegroup, that player should declare which Transports they will be activating with that Battlegroup (if any). These Transports complete their Actions alongside the contents of that Battlegroup for the remainder of the turn, as if they were part of it. They do not have to be carrying anything at the time and they do not have to pick up any Units in that Battlegroup. There are 4 restrictions when Activating Transports:

1) If a Transport contains Units, it MUST be Activated with those Unit’s parent Battlegroup only.
2) A Transport can NEVER carry Units from more than 1 parent Battlegroup in a turn.
3) Just like any other Unit, Transports may only be Activated once per turn unless a special rule (such as a Command Card) says otherwise.
4) A Unit cannot be in 2 different Transports with the same T letter value in the same turn. Like all Units, Transports must shoot at the same time as other Units in their Battlegroup.


1. Does not apply to Shaltari after turn 1 - they never carry anything.
2. Does not apply to Shaltari in the sense that they cannot activate a gate twice as per 3.
4. Does not apply to shaltari as the dematerialised rules state they can: To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! And they are never actually in a gate anyway.

So, the only restriction is that (like everyone else now, unless the transport is carrying a unit) the Shaltari activate any transport they choose as part of the battlegroup activation after turn 1 (open Transports).

If all the gates over the course of the battle are destroyed, then the Shaltari player would not be able to materialise or walk on any units that are currently "Dematerialised" - these would be counted as removed from the game: However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Approach Types:

If a BG is held off the table by Approach Type, I believe that any Transport assigned to that BG during the list building is also held off waiting for entry with that BG.

Where the Shaltari differ here, is that while currently this means (for everyone else) that the Battlegroup and there associated transports fly onto the table (say in turn 3), the Shaltari Gate (if any were assigned to that BG) flies on but the units themselves (that were delayed) can now access from any other gate on the table that can disembark them (as long as they were declared dematerialised at the start of the game) because the gates /transports are all open from turn 2 onwards. So for Shaltari approach type means pretty much nothing (under the current rules). They can either use the gate assigned (if any) or any other gate the units can use.

Akdakkar wrote:That in addiction to approach means that if your heavy enters on turn 3 maeby it doesn't enter if your opponent focus on gates and have enough AA.


Theoretically yes, if your opponent did not assign a gate of their own to that BG and you had destroyed all other gates capable of transporting those units by turn 3 - However I would not think this is a likely scenario, especially now fast movers can only turn up from turn 3 onwards (and Shaltari gates now have a pretty decent chance of taking out attacking fast movers that don't kill them).

That's my understanding of how gates work now anyway - could do with a more detailed explanation from Hawk, but that's what the rules seem to suggest IMO.


That's what I mean. I know it is very improbable that yoy destroy all the gates at T3 but loosing some of them look like an important disadventages combined with approach types. What I mean is that sh has its vulnerability;I don't show them especially op. I have been playing V2 from the very beginning and I have a lot of games under my belt against and with sh and they are not so op. Maeby more clarify about gate assignment at the begining of the game ia needed. I assume that you can't start with more mass desmaterialized than mass add all gates.

If I am correct then sh player needs a lot of priced gates (in addiction to the priced units sh has) or be in risk to lost too many gates and forced to enter with his overmass units by foot.
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Akdakkar

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 12:14 pm

Gonefishing wrote:
Akdakkar wrote:About sh gates: you need to assign the units that are going to use the gates before the game start. That means that units don't assign to enter via gate,enter on foot;and units assign to enter via gate have the risk to lost all the gates suitable to be used by thin units,then they are removed from game.



Looking into it, this is the way I understand it for Shaltari at the moment (which may be wrong as there is nothing explicit):

Transport rules:

CHOOSING DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Unit’s whose primary function is to carry other Units are chosen outside the normal Battlegroup structure. This allows them to swap Battlegroups during gameplay as requirements dictate. These Units are identified by their Category (‘Transport’). When choosing Transports, a player may take as many as they like in their army, with the following rules:

1. Each Transport chosen must be assigned to a starting Battlegroup when building your army and must start the game at maximum capacity (unless the rules state otherwise). It may change Battlegroup and does not have to be full in later turns.


The above does not apply fully to Shaltari - as gates don't have a capacity. I would surmise that only the first part of stage 1 applies, they just need to assign the gates to each BG in the list for the first turn, and for the first turn those gates can just be used by those Battlegroups.

The gate rules themselves state that gates act like transports with the following exceptions (nothing that overrides the rule above, so I would suggest the old gatepool no longer exists in the old sense).

Squads embarked in Gates aren’t counted as being inside a single transport. Instead they are counted as Dematerialised. To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! Embarking/ Disembarking otherwise follows the usual rules. This also means that Gates ignore the Destroyed Transports rules as they will never have anything inside. However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Any squads that start the game Dematerialised must be declared as such. Those squads may only arrive onto the battlefield by Materialising from a Gate.


What it does tell us is that any unit that wants to gate on, has to be declared as dematerialised at the start of the game and the only way for them to enter play is through a gate (a battlegroup however does not have to have a gate assigned to declare units dematerialised, but if none are assigned these units will not come on till turn 2 when the transports open up). Therefore, any unit that is not declared dematerialised will be a walk on unit.

The aerial advantage rule tells us:

In all games, Units not of the Type ‘Aircraft’ or starting the game aboard Transports of the Type ‘Aircraft’ automatically spend turn 1 in Reserve unless Directly Deployed, regardless of Approach type.

So, assumption here is that "Dematerialised" units are counted as being in Aircraft (technically they are), so can deploy as normal turn 1. The exception being units not aircraft or declared as dematerialised - who (as walk on units) would go into reserve.

The reserve rules now seem different in the fact that I can find no mention of rolling for arrival, as it stands it states:

In Reserve Units in Reserve are some distance from the Battlefield/ slow to arrive due to their lack of speed. Units in Reserve may not complete Actions until the scenario/ rules move them out of Reserve and into Readiness.

So, in the absence of scenario rules stating otherwise, I presume that a walk on unit move into readiness (and can come on) in turn 2 automatically, as aerial advantage only bans them for turn 1.

Once the Shaltari units are on the table (and Turn 1 has played), the gates become totally open again and can be assigned to any Battlegroup - as per:

When a player Activates a Battlegroup, that player should declare which Transports they will be activating with that Battlegroup (if any). These Transports complete their Actions alongside the contents of that Battlegroup for the remainder of the turn, as if they were part of it. They do not have to be carrying anything at the time and they do not have to pick up any Units in that Battlegroup. There are 4 restrictions when Activating Transports:

1) If a Transport contains Units, it MUST be Activated with those Unit’s parent Battlegroup only.
2) A Transport can NEVER carry Units from more than 1 parent Battlegroup in a turn.
3) Just like any other Unit, Transports may only be Activated once per turn unless a special rule (such as a Command Card) says otherwise.
4) A Unit cannot be in 2 different Transports with the same T letter value in the same turn. Like all Units, Transports must shoot at the same time as other Units in their Battlegroup.


1. Does not apply to Shaltari after turn 1 - they never carry anything.
2. Does not apply to Shaltari in the sense that they cannot activate a gate twice as per 3.
4. Does not apply to shaltari as the dematerialised rules state they can: To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! And they are never actually in a gate anyway.

So, the only restriction is that (like everyone else now, unless the transport is carrying a unit) the Shaltari activate any transport they choose as part of the battlegroup activation after turn 1 (open Transports).

If all the gates over the course of the battle are destroyed, then the Shaltari player would not be able to materialise or walk on any units that are currently "Dematerialised" - these would be counted as removed from the game: However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Approach Types:

If a BG is held off the table by Approach Type, I believe that any Transport assigned to that BG during the list building is also held off waiting for entry with that BG.

Where the Shaltari differ here, is that while currently this means (for everyone else) that the Battlegroup and there associated transports fly onto the table (say in turn 3), the Shaltari Gate (if any were assigned to that BG) flies on but the units themselves (that were delayed) can now access from any other gate on the table that can disembark them (as long as they were declared dematerialised at the start of the game) because the gates /transports are all open from turn 2 onwards. So for Shaltari approach type means pretty much nothing (under the current rules). They can either use the gate assigned (if any) or any other gate the units can use.

Akdakkar wrote:That in addiction to approach means that if your heavy enters on turn 3 maeby it doesn't enter if your opponent focus on gates and have enough AA.


Theoretically yes, if your opponent did not assign a gate of their own to that BG and you had destroyed all other gates capable of transporting those units by turn 3 - However I would not think this is a likely scenario, especially now fast movers can only turn up from turn 3 onwards (and Shaltari gates now have a pretty decent chance of taking out attacking fast movers that don't kill them).

That's my understanding of how gates work now anyway - could do with a more detailed explanation from Hawk, but that's what the rules seem to suggest IMO.


That's what I mean. I know it is very improbable that yoy destroy all the gates at T3 but loosing some of them look like an important disadventages combined with approach types. What I mean is that sh has its vulnerability;I don't show them especially op. I have been playing V2 from the very beginning and I have a lot of games under my belt against and with sh and they are not so op. Maeby more clarify about gate assignment at the begining of the game ia needed. I assume that you can't start with more mass desmaterialized than mass add all gates.

If I am correct then sh player needs a lot of priced gates (in addiction to the priced units sh has) or be in risk to lost too many gates and forced to enter with his overmass units by foot.
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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 12:40 pm

Akdakkar wrote: I know it is very improbable that yoy destroy all the gates at T3 but loosing some of them look like an important disadventages combined with approach types.


I disagree, they are never at a disadvantage, if you want you can play Shaltari like any other faction and assign the gates to the BGs in reserve.
The fact that you don´t have to do this and can enter from transports already on the field is the advantage that could be lost. However that is quite unlikely, as the enemy is unlikely to be even in range before T3, that is if for some reason you cannot hide your gates. I am still at loss how a Shaltari player is supposed to loss any significant amount of gates until T3.


Akdakkar wrote:I have been playing V2 from the very beginning and I have a lot of games under my belt against and with sh and they are not so op


Since there were no rules for Shaltari in the early Beta this is irrelevant, I play DZC since 1.0, a lot of them against Shaltari and played games in the "closed" Beta. Proves nothing.

Akdakkar wrote:I assume that you can't start with more mass desmaterialized than mass add all gates.


What leads you to this conclusion? This was never the case and there is no reference to this in the Beta rules. If you play under that assumption Shaltari are a bit less flexible for sure.

Akdakkar wrote:If I am correct then sh player needs a lot of priced gates (in addiction to the priced units sh has) or be in risk to lost too many gates and forced to enter with his overmass units by foot.


How are the Shaltari units "priced", I assume overpriced, compared to the other factions?

An Eden cost 40P, a Condor 30P (unarmed), a Marauder 40P and a Neptune 38P. How is that overpriced?

How are they loosing those gates so early?
And last but not least you realise that you cannot walk on Dematerilised units? See the end of the middle paragraph in the Shaltari Units Beta rules "Gates".

I assume you have little to no experience to DZC prior to the Beta rules?

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 5:29 pm

Akdakkar wrote:
That's what I mean. I know it is very improbable that yoy destroy all the gates at T3 but loosing some of them look like an important disadventages combined with approach types. What I mean is that sh has its vulnerability;I don't show them especially op. I have been playing V2 from the very beginning and I have a lot of games under my belt against and with sh and they are not so op. Maeby more clarify about gate assignment at the begining of the game ia needed.


I have to agree with Lorn on this one Akdakkar, where approach types are concerned its just an advantage, if (and its a pretty big if) they do lose some of there active transports it before the unit arrives, it still remains an advantage.

Turn 3 your UCM opponent chugs onto the table with his armoured formation / Condors - they can go a maximum 18" in (if he keeps them in the transport), or 9" if they are going to drop. Keeping them in the transport (as its now turn 3) becomes more of a risk if your opponent has fast movers, who are now on the table - either way - its likely to be turn 4/5 before you are getting them fully into the action. With Shaltari that unit can appear pretty much straight in the fight, utilising any gate/s in play on the turn they arrive - its an advantage.

Lets say its Infanty arriving late, for everyone else they cannot get into a central objective the turn they arrive - Turn 4 to get into a central building, turn 5 to fight/search. Shaltari - Straight in on turn 3, fighting and searching turn 4 onwards - Its an advantage.

There is a chance the Shaltari player may lose some gates before they arrive....but its not a high chance. I could potentially see a Shaltari player making a near suicidal gate run with a gate around turn 3 - if its survival would allow him to drop a powerful drop and shoot unit right down his opponents throat - on the basis that if the gate is destroyed he has not really lost much / if it survives he gains a great deal - but other than that as Lorn says, it is extremely unlikely they will have lost many (if any) gates by turn 3.

That's the other Shaltari DNS advantage by the way, as the units are not actually inside the gates they can make drop runs with very limited risk, that other factions could not - you wont fly a condor full of units through your opponents AA, you may well take that risk with an empty gate however, especially with passive saves - Its a real placement advantage and all your risking is a 40pt gate.

Akdakkar wrote:I assume that you can't start with more mass desmaterialized than mass add all gates.

If I am correct then sh player needs a lot of priced gates (in addiction to the priced units sh has) or be in risk to lost too many gates and forced to enter with his overmass units by foot.


No - Mass only limits what you can drop through a gate per turn, it has no relation to your army as a whole (and nothing in V2 we have seen so far suggests it does).

And as Lorn says, you cannot bring units on by foot if you have declared them dematerialised at the start of the game, If all your gates die - anything dematerialised that isn't on the table is effectively removed from play - but unless you have taken a tiny number of gates by the time this actually happens I would think its 99% likely everything will already be in play and this will only effect your redeploying (in the same way that other races who lost all their transports would have).
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stormbringer

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 5:35 pm

Lorn wrote:Indeed as far as I am aware this is intentional.


Knowing Gonefishing's long established love for the athena, and in the absence of anything further from ttcombat, our gaming group will need to decide on this one: - do you have any further information that confirms/supports the change to a "weapons free" athena (i.e no alt-1 weapons) being intended by ttcombat?



thanks in advance!
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 6:15 pm

stormbringer wrote:
Lorn wrote:Indeed as far as I am aware this is intentional.


Knowing Gonefishing's long established love for the athena, and in the absence of anything further from ttcombat, our gaming group will need to decide on this one: - do you have any further information that confirms/supports the change to a "weapons free" athena (i.e no alt-1 weapons) being intended by ttcombat?



thanks in advance!


Well - Its not something you need to massively worry about Storm, as I am not a fan of the attack run rules and struggling with the whole risk / reward balance with them. I would exhibit the UCM seraphim as the other example of a (single) squad fighter however, and that's had the same treatment as the Athena....(I suspect the third Athena weapon, s7 single shot standard stealth missile was not "alt-ed" because nobody could remember a time an Athena had ever fired one lol).

Plus - Its not actually massively over gunned (for the points) to the other attack runs, Warspear pays 45 pts and gets either 8 E7 AA shots hitting on 3's or 2 E10 shots (or a combination of), Athena is 40 points comes as a single and gets 6E7 AA hitting on 4(5)+s, and 1 E12 on a 2(3)+ - thats roughly the same spread.

Edit* So unused am I to even thinking about its additional E7 SC missile I forgot to even include it - I don't think that makes a massive difference though :lol:
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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 9:56 pm

Sadly my input in regards to the Athena and the removing of alt is from the closed Beta. Also this is from memory as I recall that somebody asked about this and got a positive answer back in the Hawk days. So take it with a grain of salt. Though much less salt then 5 DP Spirits. :lol:

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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stormbringer

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostWed May 09, 2018 12:31 pm

Lorn wrote:Sadly my input in regards to the Athena and the removing of alt is from the closed Beta. Also this is from memory as I recall that somebody asked about this and got a positive answer back in the Hawk days. So take it with a grain of salt. Though much less salt then 5 DP Spirits. :lol:



Cheers Lorn. As you infer, things like the 5dp spirit gate are obviously wrong. The 2-3 sirens squad and 4+ passive save jaguar, are probably wrong but at least plausible changes.

The "weapons free" athena does seem more plausible when compared to double warspears- but NOT (IMHO) scourge corsairs which are more brittle, give up kill points way easier and even 3 are under gunned when compared to the Athena- but perhaps the corsair squad could stand to be a touch cheaper instead? (And I definitely think a squad of corsairs giving up 510 kill points is way over the top!)
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Akdakkar

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostWed May 09, 2018 3:15 pm

I play DZC from the beginning of the game, Gonefish. It give me enough experience,I think.

Maeby this assumption we take made the difference. We think its logical but it's true that it is not written in that way on the beta rules.
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