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Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

Tell the world your Dropzone related trials and tribulations!
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Gonefishing

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostSun Sep 10, 2017 11:50 pm

_ghost_ wrote:But you can't build your whole army with that in mind. It virtualy Doubles the points of the unit.

So if you put that much emphasis on alpha strike DnS units you will lack anything else.


I'm with you on that one Ghost, I think spending lots of points on Alpha Strike DNS will neuter the rest of your force - and its a lot of eggs in one basket which cant cover the whole table, may not be suitable for all types of victory conditions and most importantly can be neutralised/killed by your opponent. (As Stomp and I have debated no end of times, those 6 Slayers could indeed kill the rapiers, equally the rapiers could kill them all on the way in, especially if the transport has already taken a hit or too, or you could target the rapiers with Smart Smoke which makes their deaths far from assured or neutralise the attack in another way) - A DNS Deathstar is a big powerful unit but it comes with no guarantees.

Stompzilla wrote:Odins are what you really need to worry about though, because those suckers don't die easy and shoot from turn 1 onwards and once on a CL don't tend to move or be moved.


Not sure on that one Stomp, yes DNS will let them shoot from turn 1 - but its fairly unlikely they will have any non building targets at that point (and they don't have Demo weapons) - Unless your opponent has helpfully deployed in the open at least 12" in. They are hard to kill (but not as hard as they were, A10 counts for much less now days), and if they are sat on a critical location (which I agree is the best place for them) they aren't going to be DNSing anyway - there is 0 difference to them doing the same thing in the current edition.

stormbringer wrote:I recall that everyone will be getting the same force organisations chart in 2nd- happy with that. ....

....another thing I hope to see balanced is command value costs and deck abilities as it seems ucm pay some of the highest points but get the worst decks while phr and scourge pay the lowest and get the best decks!

I also wonder whether CV costs should drop in general? High CVs costing 150 points are losing lists the equivalent of a top class unit. With the need for more transports in 2nd, Hawk could support model sales by reducing CV costs to every faction- win-win!


I had not heard that one, I recall Dave saying that they were going to make the force org less restrictive, but not that everyone was getting the same one - could be interesting.

PS. I think the CV values pretty much equal out don't they Storm? UCM and Shaltari seem to pay less for the Command Unit and more for the CV, PHR and Scourge pay more for the Command Unit and less for the CV. On the Basic Commanders:

Scourge Desolater (CV4) - 225 pts
Shaltari Coyote (CV4) - 205 pts
UCM Kodiak (CV4) - 203 pts
PHR Zeus (special case here as its designed to be part of a squad - so minimum worthwhile unit: Zeus/Odin (CV4) - 236 Pts.

So its pretty much all in the same price zone with Scourge and PHR paying the most (but not by much). That's said, I would be in favour of CV values coming down a bit, I agree at the moment they are a touch too high!
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killionaire

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 5:31 am

Skylifter-1000 wrote:
killionaire wrote:+2 is absolutely a downside. It's a little more than half firepower approx when firing a normally 2+ weapon by making it a 4+. And if you're shooting at a skimmer, it's even worse: Instead of half firepower, it's 1/3rds firepower.

Even if you 'get the drop' on something using half or a third firepower, what's left is going to crush your guys because they weren't firing at a penalty.


I dunno, a little more than half firepower on Overseer-doubled firepower seems like pretty much a bit more than normal firepower to me.

But maybe there'll be a change or two to how specific units work, so hard to say whether it'll be an actual problem.

The Overseer is itself a problem, even currently. It's really, stupid powerful for all scourge units, and makes it pointless to do anything except spam plasma cannon hunters. It's power has nothing to do with hot dropping.
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stormbringer

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 11:55 am

Gonefishing wrote:
PS. I think the CV values pretty much equal out don't they Storm? UCM and Shaltari seem to pay less for the Command Unit and more for the CV, PHR and Scourge pay more for the Command Unit and less for the CV. On the Basic Commanders:

Scourge Desolater (CV4) - 225 pts
Shaltari Coyote (CV4) - 205 pts
UCM Kodiak (CV4) - 203 pts
PHR Zeus (special case here as its designed to be part of a squad - so minimum worthwhile unit: Zeus/Odin (CV4) - 236 Pts.

So its pretty much all in the same price zone with Scourge and PHR paying the most (but not by much). That's said, I would be in favour of CV values coming down a bit, I agree at the moment they are a touch too high!


An Interesting comparison, GF. But I think the debate about whether the points for a Shaltari Coyote/gharial (105/110pts) I field; or the PHR Hera (96points) or Nemesis (190 points) you field are correct; -is another topic. Because you can buy all those units without putting a commander in them; they already need to be balanced in points terms for "normal" use- so, I'm personally interested in the CV upgrade costs themselves- are they balanced?

I don't have my book to hand, but CV4 & CV5 are:-
Scourge = 85 points / 120 points
PHR = 90 points / 120 points
Shalrtari = 100 points / 150 points
UCM = 95 points / 140 points

So, Scourge and PHR pay the least- but have the best decks! UCM pay the most (after shaltari) -but have the worst deck! That needs rebalancing one way or another- especially as the higher CVs will be more important with DnS arriving with 2nd edition! (double-tap ahoy!)

In addition to rebalancing though; I'd like CV2 dropping to a nominal amount; say 10 points to encourage everyone to take a commander - even if its just using up the last few points in a list. CVs 3 to 5 can then all be correspondingly less (and balanced depending on how good the new decks are for each faction!).

Hawk gets to sell more models, and we get to throw more units on the table- as I said in my last post, win-win!
Last edited by stormbringer on Mon Sep 11, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bistromatic

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 12:54 pm

Not sure if it has been mentioned here but it is public knowledge from the Beasts of War interview that there will be new command decks. They will come with 56 cards and you choose 40 of those to be your actual deck.
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Berjiz

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 5:20 pm

killionaire wrote:
Skylifter-1000 wrote:
killionaire wrote:+2 is absolutely a downside. It's a little more than half firepower approx when firing a normally 2+ weapon by making it a 4+. And if you're shooting at a skimmer, it's even worse: Instead of half firepower, it's 1/3rds firepower.

Even if you 'get the drop' on something using half or a third firepower, what's left is going to crush your guys because they weren't firing at a penalty.


I dunno, a little more than half firepower on Overseer-doubled firepower seems like pretty much a bit more than normal firepower to me.

But maybe there'll be a change or two to how specific units work, so hard to say whether it'll be an actual problem.

The Overseer is itself a problem, even currently. It's really, stupid powerful for all scourge units, and makes it pointless to do anything except spam plasma cannon hunters. It's power has nothing to do with hot dropping.


Not sure if the problem is the Overseer or tha the other choices aren't as good. But it is a risk unit to introduce. Something needs to be done with it in any case though.
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Lorn

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 5:27 pm

I fail to see what complains about the Overseer (which I do not share) have to do with a 2nd Edition thread. :?

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017
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Gauntlet

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 9:35 pm

Well its a minor point, but basically any unit balance could be discussed for 2.0.

In general though, I think if they rework some Scourge basic stats they can really tone down the overseer.
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Gonefishing

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostMon Sep 11, 2017 10:09 pm

Bistromatic wrote:Not sure if it has been mentioned here but it is public knowledge from the Beasts of War interview that there will be new command decks. They will come with 56 cards and you choose 40 of those to be your actual deck.


Yes - I remember seeing that and quite like the idea, I think Dave said there will be more cards that support certain play styles. Will be interesting to see what the new cards are like!


stormbringer wrote: An Interesting comparison, GF. But I think the debate about whether the points for a Shaltari Coyote/gharial (105/110pts) I field; or the PHR Hera (96points) or Nemesis (190 points) you field are correct; -is another topic. Because you can buy all those units without putting a commander in them; they already need to be balanced in points terms for "normal" use- so, I'm personally interested in the CV upgrade costs themselves- are they balanced?

I don't have my book to hand, but CV4 & CV5 are:-
Scourge = 85 points / 120 points
PHR = 90 points / 120 points
Shalrtari = 100 points / 150 points
UCM = 95 points / 140 points

So, Scourge and PHR pay the least- but have the best decks! UCM pay the most (after shaltari) -but have the worst deck! That needs rebalancing one way or another- especially as the higher CVs will be more important with DnS arriving with 2nd edition! (double-tap ahoy!)


Not quite what I meant Storm, irrespective of whether the command units themselves are balanced I suspect the reason that UCM and Shaltari pay more for CV value at the moment is not because of the decks (which are already on their 2nd iteration), but because generally speaking the command units that carry them are cheaper than Scourge and PHR - I suspect this was Hawks way to balance out the Command options, when they first released the game - As a result all the command units are in roughly the same price bracket at the moment. If they had not done that then UCM and Shaltari would be around 60 Points cheaper for the same level of command.

As it is the overall command costs (unit and CV) are generally slightly higher for Scourge and PHR (if you buy the minimum playable unit for the Zeus / Hera), and cheaper for UCM and Shaltari - so I think it kind of balances out (at present in 1st edition). But In would be wary of basing the pricing just on the decks though as CV is useful for more than just cards, and if you standardise the CV value then there becomes quite a big points gap in what the factions are paying for their command options and your more likely to be able to afford that higher CV value if the base unit carrying it is cheaper.....which will also lead to imbalance - so its probably better to look at CV cost and deck parity as 2 separate things.

That said I don't disagree with your objective! I think the UCM deck in particular will be looking forward to a 2nd edition deck reset, and I do think CV values are too high currently - Its going to be really interesting to see what will happen with these, especially with less restrictive force orgs on the horizon
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stormbringer

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostTue Sep 12, 2017 12:16 pm

Gonefishing wrote:Not quite what I meant Storm, irrespective of whether the command units themselves are balanced I suspect the reason that UCM and Shaltari pay more for CV value at the moment is not because of the decks (which are already on their 2nd iteration), but because generally speaking the command units that carry them are cheaper than Scourge and PHR - I suspect this was Hawks way to balance out the Command options, when they first released the game - As a result all the command units are in roughly the same price bracket at the moment. If they had not done that then UCM and Shaltari would be around 60 Points cheaper for the same level of command.

As it is the overall command costs (unit and CV) are generally slightly higher for Scourge and PHR (if you buy the minimum playable unit for the Zeus / Hera), and cheaper for UCM and Shaltari - so I think it kind of balances out (at present in 1st edition). But In would be wary of basing the pricing just on the decks though as CV is useful for more than just cards, and if you standardise the CV value then there becomes quite a big points gap in what the factions are paying for their command options and your more likely to be able to afford that higher CV value if the base unit carrying it is cheaper.....which will also lead to imbalance - so its probably better to look at CV cost and deck parity as 2 separate things.


Personally, I think it’s far more likely that Dave designed and costed the command units and command abilities separately - otherwise he could have included combined unit points for each cv commander in each hq unit entry. (As with famous commanders)

However, this is all irrelevant now every faction has multiple hq choices. The cost for a CV and deck of cards has to solely relate how good those deck of cards are and the CV level.

How good the unit containing the commander is, must be costed for that unit. After all, its not just command units that can hold commanders.

Finally, I see no reason why every faction's command should cost similar amounts. It is enough that everyone has fairly costed units and fairly costed command decks/CV.

I hope my response is reasonable, I feel CV costs have been fudged in the past and should be more transparently costed and balanced in 2nd edition.

And cheaper for all factions!
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Dropzone Commander 2nd Edition

PostTue Sep 12, 2017 9:11 pm

Been away from home and out of the loop for a few months. Really wish I could play test more but here is what I can see with no game time in v2 beta.

CV values should come down to encourage their use regardless of faction. With greater emphasis on command groups because of the FM rules these BGs should be encouraged especially with the possible command deck changes. The idea that cards will support different play styles and are chosen into a deck rather than fixed means you will likely see many more army styles for each faction which is something I fully approve! I'm just not sure where to draw the line when it comes to cost vs effectiveness. You don't want to make CV5 an auto include nor punish those that go CV2-3. This really comes down to how effective the cards really are. If they just push a play style and encourage its use rather than being essential for that play style I would be happy as that makes CV a choice rather than required. Basically I'd like to see a 10-30pts drop for CVs and ensure the cards are not over powered.
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