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Attention Commanders!

Tell the world your Dropzone related trials and tribulations!
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Lorn

Hawk Talon

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 11:23 am

Actually tournament balance might be easier to achieve then "general" balance. The main issue I see are the abilities that scale with army size, like point breaks for certain units. For a tournament we know the army sizes (1500P) which would most likely result in them being balanced with these points in mind. Resulting in them being over costed at lower values and under costed at higher point values. With the special cards being another hard to balance factor.

In other cases the commanders themselves are simply bonkers Foley comes to mind, as currently he is nearly impossible to kill with normal units and can be used for nasty scoring shenanigans. The Scourge Dino is also a bit too strong and outranges most AA. Though as others stated not all special commanders are like this, some I would consider more or less balanced (even some with army wide abilities) at least for for the current first edition.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Egge

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 11:50 am

Lorn wrote:Also sensible things
Hmm. Some points there. But even at 1500points I do feel that one takes units more suitable to a certain commander that makes it harder to balance it up.
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Nobody

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostFri Dec 08, 2017 3:04 pm

On one hand I can understand the desire to make special characters official. I remember back in 3rd edition 40k special characters just weren't purchased since nobody would agree to play against them. You could buy say, Ahriman, paint up and convert him, and he'd sit on your shelf because you know that's the only way he'd come out of your bag.

On the other, in DZC these special characters come with additional powerful command cards and shift your force org chart (in some case radically). You may come expecting to play against a standard UCM player and find yourself facing a massive tank swarm that can drop and shoot (well, mk 1 rules).

The inability to take SCs is somewhat mitigated by being recycled as models for new units (such as the Hera and Broadsword) or being a unique version of existing models (Ferrum, Nemesis).

IMO, the best way to get them in would be for campaign rules to encourage them by having you declare an overall commander for your force. You aren't stepping on tournament player toes this way, and there's no confusion on if you are facing an SC or not because your opponents will always know you're bringing him or her.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostSat Dec 09, 2017 12:50 am

While I personally don't care either way if named commanders become tournament legal or not (assuming they become properly balanced), I do agree that some level of meta-list construction would be much appreciated, like what Gauntlet proposed with alternate lists for the varying factions.

An alternate idea to this would be army-wide upgrades/modifcations, rather than wargear for individual units/squads. Precise balance aside, these could range from how the army list itself is constructed, or stat changes to units/types of units themselves. These army-wide upgrades would perhaps either be deducted from that army's overall points, or be upgrades specific to that army's commander(s), with certain upgrades requiring a certain minimum CV.

In essence, "build your own named commander", just with less powerful and more appropriately costed specials, and no special unique units.
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stormbringer

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostSat Dec 09, 2017 6:39 pm

Dropzone (Dropfleet... not so much IMHO. ..) is in a great place in my opinion- and I hope 2nd edition will only add to this.

For me, what is missing is more factions. You can never have perfectly balanced factions unless everyone has the same stuff (a la chess!).

However, more factions means a more fluid meta, more chance of leftfield lists shocking conventional netlists and less need to seek the holy grail of perfect balance between just 5 factions.

I know Dave originally planned for 8 factions and the sooner we start adding these factions the better- because every time the 5 existing factions get new stuff, the higher the entry level requirements gets for any new factions and that must be daunting for Hawk.
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Shikatanai

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostSun Dec 10, 2017 9:25 am

Problem with that is even if a game is in a good place more factions can ruin this quite quickly.

Yes you can never achieve complete balance (even Chess is not 100% balanced) but with more factions you highly increase the chance of creating huge missmatches / skews.
I personally think one or at maximum two new factions would do and more would not create a better game experience.
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juz

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostMon Dec 11, 2017 12:55 am

i gotta agree..more is not always better, no more factions or indeed systems just yet please- not unless theres a core demographic of potential players a particular new genre of faction will bring in...besides with DZC V2 and DFC destroyers etc in the pipeline the balance pendulum needs time to reach "near - equilibrium".

Sure I'm only just starting out in DZC anyway-opposite ends of the human spectrum- resistance and phr.,..and very little full competitive DFC under my belt.
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stormbringer

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostTue Dec 12, 2017 10:11 am

Hello Juz, I think when you have been in the game a few more years then you might be ready for a new faction?

I love dropzone, and want evolution not revolution! So I am not suggesting we get all the new factions in one release.

My fear is that without new stuff a game becomes stagnant and withers. At present, the new stuff has just been more units for the existing 5 factions; and they each all have knocking on for 40 units already- how many of these unit types can be used in a 1500 point game??

Do we all want 75% of models sitting on our shelves whilst the rest is on the table? Unless we play 10,000 point mega games, more units for each of the 5 factions is going to create more models gathering dust ( and even rebalancing exercises by Hawk is only going to rotate which gather dust).

As has been commented by many, the forums are quieter. New units for the 5 existing factions is suffering from the law of diminishing returns.....

There are a lot of other good games out there, so I don't think a 3rd commander game is the answer. But another faction would get the buzz back into dropzone IMHO.
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Gonefishing

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostWed Dec 13, 2017 12:25 am

I am more on the fence with this one. I am eagerly awaiting 2nd edition and think this will revitalise the game quite a lot, so if the choice is between 2nd edition and a new Dropzone faction I would rather have 2nd edition (and a few new units). If the choice is between an entirely new (third) DZC universe game and a new DZC faction, then I choose faction all the way to add to the game.

That said, a new faction will be a lot of work - balancing, new units (for both DZC and DFC), new models etc - so not sure we should be counting on that happening anytime soon. In terms of the available current units (for the existing factions) very few are currently unusable, and most are viable depending on build choice. As an example I play PHR and the Taranis and Janus are utter chocolate teapots, and the Neptune is pretty awful (but used as there is no other choice) - but the other units remain viable. While I personally hate the Ares, Angelos A2 and the Aether, but plenty of other PHR players like and use them (I know for example that JD rates the Ares).

In regards to the forum, it is quieter - but I think that's more because we have not had any new releases for DZC in a looong time now and we simply don't have much to talk about at the moment. We know the rules and have discussed those we weren't sure on, and there are only so many times we can argue about the over powered / perfectly fine (depending on your perspective) Panther, or discuss tactics/unit tricks etc before we start repeating ourselves.

So I ascribe to the: "If you build it, they will come" factor.

Image

When 2nd edition rules hit, new units get released or existing ones rebalanced - pretty sure the forums will pick up a lot and we will all be arguing away happily again. So personally, I think a new faction would be a "nice to have" but not something that's 100% necessary for the game at the moment. It would be interesting to see however!
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ZombiePirate

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Re: Attention Commanders!

PostWed Dec 13, 2017 9:47 am

I'll be honest, I was excited for 2.0, but the whole horrific mess that was/is the Dropfleet Kickstarter has severely soured my mood towards Hawk and I've loved them since I saw the first models on display at Salute. None of the people that I play with are even talking about Hawk stuff anymore and we were all hyped for Spaceships (which I still think look amazing) and then the 2.0 announcement, but it's all kind of died out now with the lack of comms and the delays and everything.

The irony is that we're all back playing and painting 40k again after an extremely long hiatus that DZC filled.
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