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OPEN BETA feedback tread!

Tell the world your Dropzone related trials and tribulations!
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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostSun May 06, 2018 2:52 pm

Sirens need a squadsize of 2 not 2-3 not any change to their transport value. ;)

If TT-Combat wants to add the option of Sirens with a squad size of 3 "creating" their own Transport, in rules only, might be the smartest and quickest solution. Alternatively a special rule. I doubt however that this is needed or worth it.


They would do themselves a favour by fixing the Shaltari gates instead as I foresee an ungodly amount of (justified) whining and bitching if Shaltari are released as they are. To repeat the issues:

1. T1 Shaltari are very boring for both sides and at a disadvantage at the current Beta rule stage (assuming there are no major changes to Shaltari special rules to fix this), they can only deploy aircraft in T1 as their units are shifted into reserves due to "aerial advantage" which weakens them.

2. T2+ Shaltari are stronger then before since drop and shoot is much stronger for them as the potential threat ranges come from any gate capable of teleporting the unit in question. This is in particular true for Flamers and makes Shaltari stronger.

3. The mentioned approach types and the utter disregard Shaltari have for those due to gates and point number 1.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostSun May 06, 2018 7:05 pm

Thunderboy wrote:See? It's hard to get everything right, Gonefishing.
So please let us know what you think they need?
Sirens c0.66 maybe?


I have to +1 with Lorn on that one.

Even making them .66 would mean they could no longer use Angelos etc... given all the obvious difficulties involved in messing with the capacity of every single transport for every PHR Infantry unit (or giving Sirens some sort of unique rule, which has not appeared in the rules / or increasing the squad size to 4) I have just been considering the current 2-3 squad size as a massive typo? - with the intended size being 2. (Nor can I think of a real reason for wanting to take 3 bases- that's a lot of points tied up in a single troop unit even before you add a transport).



Lorn wrote:1. T1 Shaltari are very boring for both sides and at a disadvantage at the current Beta rule stage (assuming there are no major changes to Shaltari special rules to fix this), they can only deploy aircraft in T1 as their units are shifted into reserves due to "aerial advantage" which weakens them.


Yeah, RAW this is definitely a problem, but RAI I am presuming dematerialised is supposed to supersede this? That's the way I would play it anyway, so first turn Shaltari activate selected gates with their BG's and deploy as normal (just without the option of walk on anymore).

Lorn wrote:2. T2+ Shaltari are stronger then before since drop and shoot is much stronger for them as the potential threat ranges come from any gate capable of teleporting the unit in question. This is in particular true for Flamers and makes Shaltari stronger.


This is a problem, not sure how I would solve that one - Samurai for example can pop out of any gate type, and start toasting infantry, its pretty hard to counter that. No idea how to fix it though? Its one of the problems that arise for a faction like shaltari that is already built to a completely different ruleset than the rest of us are using.

Lorn wrote:3. The mentioned approach types and the utter disregard Shaltari have for those due to gates and point number 1.


Yes - The disadvantage of (for instance) your armour units not turning up till turn 3 is pretty much ignored when you can instantly appear anywhere on the table via gate....its basically instant engagement on turn 3, when everyone else is going to be just rolling on. Huge advantage.
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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostSun May 06, 2018 8:20 pm

Gonefishing wrote:Yeah, RAW this is definitely a problem, but RAI I am presuming dematerialised is supposed to supersede this? That's the way I would play it anyway, so first turn Shaltari activate selected gates with their BG's and deploy as normal (just without the option of walk on anymore).


I honestly don´t know what the RAI on this is currently. For the sake of engaging game play in T1 I would agree with your method, however I dare not try to foresee what TT-Combats stance on this is or if they even see an issue/care.


Gonefishing wrote:This is a problem, not sure how I would solve that one - Samurai for example can pop out of any gate type, and start toasting infantry, its pretty hard to counter that. No idea how to fix it though? Its one of the problems that arise for a faction like shaltari that is already built to a completely different ruleset than the rest of us are using.


That is a thing I was unsure about for quite some time, I think at least keeping gates at their V1 cost or some minor other changes would sort of balance it out. I doubt this will be fine with lowering the gates cost as is the case currently.
And yeah I agree that a lot of issues with V2 arise in regards to factions (Shaltari) or some units (Hovercrafts) that don´t fit the standard. Which is sad because while it has it´s flaws V2 is rather promising aside those issues and the games we had so far were quite refreshing.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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stormbringer

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 7:18 am

Gonefishing wrote:
I have to +1 with Lorn on that one. I have just been considering the current 2-3 squad size as a massive typo? - with the intended size being 2.

Yeah, RAW this is definitely a problem, but RAI I am presuming dematerialised is supposed to supersede this? That's the way I would play it anyway, so first turn Shaltari activate selected gates with their BG's and deploy as normal (just without the option of walk on anymore).

Lorn wrote:2. T2+ Shaltari are stronger then before since drop and shoot is much stronger for them as the potential threat ranges come from any gate capable of teleporting the unit in question. This is in particular true for Flamers and makes Shaltari stronger.


Yes - The disadvantage of (for instance) your armour units not turning up till turn 3 is pretty much ignored when you can instantly appear anywhere on the table via gate....its basically instant engagement on turn 3, when everyone else is going to be just rolling on. Huge advantage.


1) Re: sirens- Definitely should be 2 bases IMHO

2) Re: shaltari deployment- It's confusing but the Gates section to shaltari stats sheet (btw, have TTcombat just removed those beta rules from their website? Nb Black Legion's link still works: but no way for Joe public to find these through TTcombat's general "resources" section) States one of the "exceptions​" to the rules is any dematerialised squads can materialise through an appropriate gate, so I think that is intended to overcome the "reserves" rule.

3) Re: shaltari advantage in approach types; just another reason to drop approach types or amend so shaltari have to use gates flying on at the appropriate turn with matched battlegroups type.

4) Re: shaltari general DNS advantage- just needs play testing and the gates correctly pointing (e.g. no points reductions?)


Ps I agree with Lorn, the new version is refreshing! It still needs some tweaking but I love the fact you can't " bunny hop" and "drop and shoot" together- which I believe keeps DnS balanced :)
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 9:31 am

stormbringer wrote:(btw, have TTcombat just removed those beta rules from their website? Nb Black Legion's link still works: but no way for Joe public to find these through TTcombat's general "resources" section)


Still there . Main site / More / Resources / Dropzone Commander Resources

stormbringer wrote:
2) Re: shaltari deployment- It's confusing but the Gates section to shaltari stats sheet States one of the "exceptions​" to the rules is any dematerialised squads can materialise through an appropriate gate, so I think that is intended to overcome the "reserves" rule.


That's how I read it / Would play it - As Lorn says, RAW it does not say that (and it could do with a specific "Ariel Advantage + Gates section") - but that certainly seems to be the intent?

Of course, this may be a slight advantage the other way? For example, the Ariel Advantage rule means that the other factions will be spending a lot more points on Transports - I am not sure the same holds true for Shaltari?)

stormbringer wrote:3) Re: shaltari advantage in approach types; just another reason to drop approach types or amend so shaltari have to use gates flying on at the appropriate turn with matched battlegroups type.


Not sure that would 100% solve the issues, 1. It would mean a player having to assign a gate to those squads and hold them in reserve till the specified turn (which if they don't do / forget about they cant bring them on), 2 Shaltari don't buy gates in that way when they create their lists. If (as a PHR player) I buy a unit, I buy a transport with them and the unit starts with that transport, Shaltari have their gate pool, which is often less than the number of units they need to transport, so that could actually be a severe movement reduction for Shaltari in the first few turns then still an advantage when they do arrive (they will still be anywhere on the table by turn 4).

I favour dropping approach types completely based on this.

stormbringer wrote:4) Re: shaltari general DNS advantage- just needs play testing and the gates correctly pointing (e.g. no points reductions?)


I'm not sure gate pointing (raising or lowering) solves this one, everyone else is still (to an extent) transport limited in DNS terms. Ie. You know that huge Scourge Deathstar is in the CD Rack, you know where it can get to and the areas it might threaten, and you can react accordingly. Even if you are using your open transports and bunnyhopping its a turns delayed firing but you can counter it to an extent as there is till a maximum area the unit can get to, and if they are sat in their transport for a turn they can be shot down (risk/reward). Shaltari on the other hand can now drop the right tool for the job anywhere on the table they can get a gate to...and theoretically start shooting (if the unit was already dematerialised), and suffer no negative effects (other than the loss of the gate) if the gate is shot down attempting to break into a heavily defended area - where flame weapons are concerned that's especially nasty.

Like you say, needs play testing - but just looking at the potential I can see issues (I may be wrong though, so that's where the play testing comes in!)

stormbringer wrote:Ps I agree with Lorn, the new version is refreshing! It still needs some tweaking but I love the fact you can't " bunny hop" and "drop and shoot" together- which I believe keeps DnS balanced :)


+1 the new version is really fresh and on the whole I think works really well. That said, I think Ground Transport +1 search I think is a mistake (and extremely unbalanced) / Approach types need to either be removed or looked at very closely / and they really need to do some comprehensive play testing on the non standard army builds that already operate outside the current game rules (for example - shaltari) to make sure they fit in with the changes in a positive way.
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Akdakkar

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 10:29 am

About sh gates: you need to assign the units that are going to use the gates before the game start. That means that units don't assign to enter via gate,enter on foot;and units assign to enter via gate have the risk to lost all the gates suitable to be used by thin units,then they are removed from game.

That in addiction to approach means that if your heavy enters on turn 3 maeby it doesn't enter if your opponent focus on gates and have enough AA.

It is what I understand from the gate use explanation on the beginning of the sh doc, isn't it?
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Lorn

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 4:54 pm

@Akdakkar

Loosing all your gates T3 is a rather unlikely scenario unless the amount you bring is minuscule, first off T1 there will be no shooting of AA as it is either disembarking (no DnS for AA) or short ranged (aircraft AA) secondly it is rather easy to hide gates due to their speed. In fact it is easier then before, as they fly lower on average. Lastly don´t be deceived by their low armour their saves make rather tough for transports.

In short what you describe is no real threat for Shaltari.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 5:24 pm

Akdakkar wrote:About sh gates: you need to assign the units that are going to use the gates before the game start. That means that units don't assign to enter via gate,enter on foot;and units assign to enter via gate have the risk to lost all the gates suitable to be used by thin units,then they are removed from game.



Looking into it, this is the way I understand it for Shaltari at the moment (which may be wrong as there is nothing explicit):

Transport rules:

CHOOSING DEDICATED TRANSPORTS Unit’s whose primary function is to carry other Units are chosen outside the normal Battlegroup structure. This allows them to swap Battlegroups during gameplay as requirements dictate. These Units are identified by their Category (‘Transport’). When choosing Transports, a player may take as many as they like in their army, with the following rules:

1. Each Transport chosen must be assigned to a starting Battlegroup when building your army and must start the game at maximum capacity (unless the rules state otherwise). It may change Battlegroup and does not have to be full in later turns.


The above does not apply fully to Shaltari - as gates don't have a capacity. I would surmise that only the first part of stage 1 applies, they just need to assign the gates to each BG in the list for the first turn, and for the first turn those gates can just be used by those Battlegroups.

The gate rules themselves state that gates act like transports with the following exceptions (nothing that overrides the rule above, so I would suggest the old gatepool no longer exists in the old sense).

Squads embarked in Gates aren’t counted as being inside a single transport. Instead they are counted as Dematerialised. To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! Embarking/ Disembarking otherwise follows the usual rules. This also means that Gates ignore the Destroyed Transports rules as they will never have anything inside. However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Any squads that start the game Dematerialised must be declared as such. Those squads may only arrive onto the battlefield by Materialising from a Gate.


What it does tell us is that any unit that wants to gate on, has to be declared as dematerialised at the start of the game and the only way for them to enter play is through a gate (a battlegroup however does not have to have a gate assigned to declare units dematerialised, but if none are assigned these units will not come on till turn 2 when the transports open up). Therefore, any unit that is not declared dematerialised will be a walk on unit.

The aerial advantage rule tells us:

In all games, Units not of the Type ‘Aircraft’ or starting the game aboard Transports of the Type ‘Aircraft’ automatically spend turn 1 in Reserve unless Directly Deployed, regardless of Approach type.

So, assumption here is that "Dematerialised" units are counted as being in Aircraft (technically they are), so can deploy as normal turn 1. The exception being units not aircraft or declared as dematerialised - who (as walk on units) would go into reserve.

The reserve rules now seem different in the fact that I can find no mention of rolling for arrival, as it stands it states:

In Reserve Units in Reserve are some distance from the Battlefield/ slow to arrive due to their lack of speed. Units in Reserve may not complete Actions until the scenario/ rules move them out of Reserve and into Readiness.

So, in the absence of scenario rules stating otherwise, I presume that a walk on unit move into readiness (and can come on) in turn 2 automatically, as aerial advantage only bans them for turn 1.

Once the Shaltari units are on the table (and Turn 1 has played), the gates become totally open again and can be assigned to any Battlegroup - as per:

When a player Activates a Battlegroup, that player should declare which Transports they will be activating with that Battlegroup (if any). These Transports complete their Actions alongside the contents of that Battlegroup for the remainder of the turn, as if they were part of it. They do not have to be carrying anything at the time and they do not have to pick up any Units in that Battlegroup. There are 4 restrictions when Activating Transports:

1) If a Transport contains Units, it MUST be Activated with those Unit’s parent Battlegroup only.
2) A Transport can NEVER carry Units from more than 1 parent Battlegroup in a turn.
3) Just like any other Unit, Transports may only be Activated once per turn unless a special rule (such as a Command Card) says otherwise.
4) A Unit cannot be in 2 different Transports with the same T letter value in the same turn. Like all Units, Transports must shoot at the same time as other Units in their Battlegroup.


1. Does not apply to Shaltari after turn 1 - they never carry anything.
2. Does not apply to Shaltari in the sense that they cannot activate a gate twice as per 3.
4. Does not apply to shaltari as the dematerialised rules state they can: To Materialise a squad they simply Disembark from any Gate currently on the board. That means that Squads may Embark into one Gate and Disembark from a completely different Gate! And they are never actually in a gate anyway.

So, the only restriction is that (like everyone else now, unless the transport is carrying a unit) the Shaltari activate any transport they choose as part of the battlegroup activation after turn 1 (open Transports).

If all the gates over the course of the battle are destroyed, then the Shaltari player would not be able to materialise or walk on any units that are currently "Dematerialised" - these would be counted as removed from the game: However, if all Gates are destroyed there is no way for any Embarked units to return from the mothership and Disembark, so will count as removed from play.

Approach Types:

If a BG is held off the table by Approach Type, I believe that any Transport assigned to that BG during the list building is also held off waiting for entry with that BG.

Where the Shaltari differ here, is that while currently this means (for everyone else) that the Battlegroup and there associated transports fly onto the table (say in turn 3), the Shaltari Gate (if any were assigned to that BG) flies on but the units themselves (that were delayed) can now access from any other gate on the table that can disembark them (as long as they were declared dematerialised at the start of the game) because the gates /transports are all open from turn 2 onwards. So for Shaltari approach type means pretty much nothing (under the current rules). They can either use the gate assigned (if any) or any other gate the units can use.

Akdakkar wrote:That in addiction to approach means that if your heavy enters on turn 3 maeby it doesn't enter if your opponent focus on gates and have enough AA.


Theoretically yes, if your opponent did not assign a gate of their own to that BG and you had destroyed all other gates capable of transporting those units by turn 3 - However I would not think this is a likely scenario, especially now fast movers can only turn up from turn 3 onwards (and Shaltari gates now have a pretty decent chance of taking out attacking fast movers that don't kill them).

That's my understanding of how gates work now anyway - could do with a more detailed explanation from Hawk, but that's what the rules seem to suggest IMO.
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stormbringer

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostMon May 07, 2018 11:16 pm

Another apparent typo- Athena can fire all 3 of its weapons simultaneously.....They were all previously alt-1......
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Gonefishing

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Re: OPEN BETA feedback tread!

PostTue May 08, 2018 6:32 am

stormbringer wrote:Another apparent typo- Athena can fire all 3 of its weapons simultaneously.....They were all previously alt-1......


There is a vague possibility that may not be a typo, as the Athena (unlike the majority of the fliers) has a squad size of 1. UCM Seraphim (also squad 1) has them same thing, it used to be Alt 1 on all weapons but can now fire 2 out of three (Bunker Buster and 1 of the two Heavenfires). One of the Heavenfire weapons is also flame now which is pretty nasty.
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