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scourge corsairs

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arkan

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scourge corsairs

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 5:47 pm

Hi,

In my opinion, scourge corsairs really need buffing. Nobody seems to be using them.

With good reason, however. I've used them in several tournaments. They did naff all in every single game they were in.

So with that in mind, How do you guys think they should be changed, if at all? Personally I think that the plasma cannon they have should be upgraded to 2+ ac. This will give them the same damage output as hunters, while making them devastating in dogfights.

What are your thoughts?
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Capt Panama

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostTue Apr 11, 2017 6:08 pm

From what I read around the web, the Athena is the best of all the five. In my group we have not invested that much in fast movers.
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Ljevid

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostFri Apr 14, 2017 7:57 am

Holdnpattern wrote:I have been resisting this for so long. But others have come up with and posted most of these notions already for me to use as building blocks. So Im going for it.

The fluff tells of a pack of these things and tank hunting.

If hawk were to realise a new fast mover, Dave having indicated that Fleet might get some more options in the future, redefining roles seems the best way to go. Have a new fastmover option that is AA, give it some form of short range arc caster. This tech makes more sense as the superior dropship hunting thing. Make it cost some points, say 70pts (for reason below). You get something that would have the scourge supper predatory feel of needing to pick a close firing point and therefore it would not be too homoginous (most others have a 12” range on primary AA weop at a guesss without my books???).

Redefine the role of the Corsair to the fluff. Make it a packhunting A-10 warthog role (with building demo). Cut the points as someone suggested on page one and have them taken in a pair for 90 points. Say take the AA off but give them the 3+ accuracy and/or pump the demo ability?

If the roles were defined more, it could help this nice miniature get more play. And while the AA version is more expensive (per mini) in points than a pair of AT/demo the competition might be fiercer within the fleet options if the redefined corsair is cheep but good?


This is one of the ideas I like best...

The issues with the Corsair pop up regularly. Have a look around :D
Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man ON fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life...
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westman

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostSat Apr 15, 2017 5:31 am

In addition to FM unreliability of Reserves + Attack run dice rolls they have the 4+ Ac issue. Just too random. 3+ Ac would be a Quick buff but I think FMs in General could be buffed somewhat.
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SwordOfJustice

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 10:36 am

Corsairs have always needed a buff. They are one the remaining dud units in this game IMO: a fighter bomber that just doesn't deliver on what it is supposed to be. The risk-reward is way off IMHO.

Let's just think on why the Corsair is so disappointing. Let's see, come out of reserves, make the availability roll, avoid enemy AA umbrella, or risk it and have a very good chance to be swatted from the sky, get to the target, hit on a 4+, then roll to damage. Against A9 you need a 3+, against A10 you need a 4+ to damage. If you get that, what will you do? Each Corsair can kill one enemy tank if you jump through all those hoops.

Don't forget you can't fly over large size buildings, so that limits where you can go to get your guns in arc and range while avoiding enemy AA. If you have to go to the deck then it's 3 in 36 to crash and burn.

Forget targeting enemy skimmers because you hit on a 6.

You will do 1-2 DP to Shaltari heavy walker, assuming they fail the shield save. You will do 1-2 DP to PHR 2 DP walkers.

So in practical, you don't get much reward for all that risk. You'll maybe get one enemy standard tank but you can work out the math to see what actual chance you have to kill that one tank. It's not great.

Of course, the Corsair is better against lighter units like APCs and artillery. I wouldn't say it's a great chance to kill those but it's better. Then we have a backfield unit like the Ferrum who got 5 DP so even two double damage hits are not enough, and I don't see APCs used much here in Australia.

I almost forgot, you lose a battlegroup usually in early turns while the FM are in reserve. Against a good opposing player, that counts for a lot.

Dave's just got FM totally wrong for most of the history of this game. They have too many hoops to jump through IMO.

FM are supposed to have this magic game winning ability which really means shooting down an escaping dropship, usually a light dropship and usually later in a game. The Corsair is bad at that magic ability IMO. It has a 4+ accuracy, though we have to calculate that it will damage on a 2+. 5 in 6 for availability, then 50% hit chance then 5 in 6 to kill. I make that out as 35% to stop that game winning enemy light dropship. So... one game in three it will work. If you dodge or survive enemy AA on the way in, that is.

That enemy game winning dropship is a Shaltari? Well then it gets a 5+ save too, but those light gates cost more points now, so hurrah for that play balance change. You see? So... many... hoops...

Solutions? Good ideas here and posts have been made before about solving the issues with Corsairs.

1. Giving it Accuracy 3+ would go a long way to making it more effective. A modest drop in points in addition to that accuracy buff would help too.

2. One solution I've thought of before is that all FMs need to be able to take a Troops slot in their Battlegroup, which should be an additional Forward Air Controller unit. It fits thematically and it would prevent the loss of a battlegroup activation in early turns. Plus give you a second FAC.

3.Having troops as FAC is a very poor solution to FM issues in the first place as you need LOS to gain the benefit. There are too many things running around that will murder infantry who come to walls and whose infantry has time anyway? They are usually very busy doing game winning things instead of stopping to come to the walls to get murdered by dragon cannons, machine guns, etc.

If it was me, I would remove the LOS requirement from FAC completely. If you have FAC on the table, you get a +1 to the availability roll, that's it.
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Novus

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 4:56 pm

I'm just starting a Scourge army and I'd love to use FMs more. A drop in points for the unit would be thematic as you could actually bring a Swarm. With a true Swarm you don't need to worry too much about bad accuracy because the Swarm mitigates that by giving more chances to hit.

In the interest of completeness, other FM change ideas I've seen...

1. Change the Reserve Roll to: 6+ on T1, 3+ on T2, and Auto-on for T3+. This one comes up in my gaming group a lot.

2. Remove the Attack run roll entirely.

3. Tie Reserve Roll success to CV. The higher your command level the better your chances on each of the current rolls.

4. Discard Command Cards to up your chances on one or the other of the current rolls. (I like this one because it forces commanders to make tactical choices during the game rather than just eliminating Reserve or Attack rolls or changing other factors outside of play, i.e. list building or the FAC inclusion)

4. Make them AMAZING at AA. Typically, ground AA hits harder, is avail from T1 onward (for walk on), and most times is more accurate against FMs. Plus, gAA can reaction fire vs transports. PlusPlus, gAA can grab CLs and FPs. There's too many advantages to gAA that FMs really just can't compete with.

5. Tweak the units themselves to make them more attractive. There are countless threads on each of the factions FMs on how this might be done.

As Sword rightly stated, there're just too many hoops for a unit that is very hit/miss, even when you successfully jump through those hoops.
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Major Awesome

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 5:50 pm

Novus wrote:I'm just starting a Scourge army and I'd love to use FMs more. A drop in points for the unit would be thematic as you could actually bring a Swarm. With a true Swarm you don't need to worry too much about bad accuracy because the Swarm mitigates that by giving more chances to hit.

In the interest of completeness, other FM change ideas I've seen...

1. Change the Reserve Roll to: 6+ on T1, 3+ on T2, and Auto-on for T3+. This one comes up in my gaming group a lot.

2. Remove the Attack run roll entirely.

3. Tie Reserve Roll success to CV. The higher your command level the better your chances on each of the current rolls.

4. Discard Command Cards to up your chances on one or the other of the current rolls. (I like this one because it forces commanders to make tactical choices during the game rather than just eliminating Reserve or Attack rolls or changing other factors outside of play, i.e. list building or the FAC inclusion)

4. Make them AMAZING at AA. Typically, ground AA hits harder, is avail from T1 onward (for walk on), and most times is more accurate against FMs. Plus, gAA can reaction fire vs transports. PlusPlus, gAA can grab CLs and FPs. There's too many advantages to gAA that FMs really just can't compete with.

5. Tweak the units themselves to make them more attractive. There are countless threads on each of the factions FMs on how this might be done.

As Sword rightly stated, there're just too many hoops for a unit that is very hit/miss, even when you successfully jump through those hoops.


I quite like a lot of these ideas. One thing I'm always interested in is synergies or interactions. I really like the idea of CV contributing in some way to the FM availability each round. In my head it makes sense that a higher rank commander would have higher priority for calling in air support!

The Forward Air Controller rule could be buffed just slightly to make FMs more viable and increase the combined arms aspect of the game. I've been pushing the idea that if your FAC has LoS to the unit the FM is shooting, the FM gets +1 accuracy against it to represent having on-site targeting assistance. It won't always come into play, but it would nudge FM gameplay in the right direction.
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Hedgehog schemer, Resistance lover, and on those random full moons when PHR aren't everywhere my true nature as cyborg comes out.
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Maninblue

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 9:17 am

I would be wary of relying on 'fixes' to the general FM rules in order to make Corsairs good: Corsairs don't fail because they appear infrequently, they fail because their stats are shite.
Dump. Poopy. Turdarific.
They cost 40+ points (rule book not on hand) and have one shot, but only hit half the time? After all the rubbish you go through to get them in position, half the time they wiff and you don't even have to worry about the chances of failing to wound/only dealing 1 wound against yet another bloody 4-wound tricycle*.

Their weapon is the problem. Either drop their points to about 20 (so that you'll always have a nice big swarm on any attack run); give them 2-3 dice on the attack like every other fast mover on the planet; or make their expensive 1-shot f*cking accurate with a 2+.

There may be value in making life better for all fast movers, but that will just make everyone else happy and Scourge unhappy - because they still won't have an FM worth buying a model for.

* exaggeration, but multi-wound models are more plentiful these days and 1 shot really doesn't do much against them.
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stevefamine

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Re: scourge corsairs

PostFri May 05, 2017 5:49 pm

Corsairs seem to be less of a "Meme unit" and more of a "This is what you don't take in your force and I never recommend it".

Other factions have "okay" FMs and options. Maybe in the future a slight tweak in the rules will make them usable (or a 15-25% point cost reduction) to make them not compete for other units

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