It is currently Sat Nov 17, 2018 10:24 pm


Experimental units and FFoR?

Discuss the FFoR list builder here!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Dvalin

  • Posts: 536
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:56 pm
  • Location: Portland, OR

Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 6:09 pm

Hey Buhallin! Out of curiosity, what's the plan with experimental units and FFoR?

Thought: rapid integration will help for building armies/testing, but it might be good to tag units with '[EXP]' such to make it clear when people are using experimental stats/points? Removing the tag when the units are finalized...?
Dropzone Commander:
PHR, a lot.
UCM, a lot.

Dropfleet Commander:
PHR, a lot.
UCM, a little.
Shaltari, a little.
Offline

Buhallin

  • Posts: 530
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:32 pm

I'm honestly still waffling on this.

At the moment, I'm leaning towards not adding them until they're finalized. The more minor reason for this is that I need art assets to provide the images, and don't want to fragment the style. More seriously, some of the new units are going to require code changes, and chasing an evolving rules set with code changes is a recipe for introducing bugs.

I'm not 100% set on that. A lot of it may depend on whether Hawk makes this a common approach going forward, and how it actually goes. When I was maintaining AoI, I'd update with the models previewed in each No Quarter because it was a major way for PP to release new stats. If it becomes standard for Hawk to do the same via the PDFs it'll bump it up my priority list. It will also depend a lot on just how experimental the rules really are. If they get through to official release with no changes, or a minor stat tweak here or there, I'll be more likely to start including experimental rules than if, say, code-change elements like the dual armor values are decided to be too cumbersome and vanish.

So that's a long winded way of saying that I think we're all feeling out new ground here. I know everyone's eager to see the new units available, but I'm going to add them with an eye towards stability and reliability in FFoR as well as satisfying the eagerness.
Offline
User avatar

Imm0rtal

  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:48 pm
  • Location: In your base, killin' your dudes.

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 7:57 pm

I know a bit about database coding and I know that it can get really hairy when you add in new categories, alternate listings and compound values. I don't know the base code of FFoR, but if you could put in the experimental units it would be great. I think that the baseline of how the new EXP units will work will remain unchanged from now until release. If you look at the rules they are labeled as 1.0 so I'd think they are decently stable. We may see a points adjustment, a value change or an asterisk added to a special rule or 2, but I doubt that any serious rules will change.

I never try to assume something is easy or hard to program because it is impossible to tell without seeing the code, but I wager to say that any stats they release are subject to only minor changes and if you have the time, putting the units in the builder would be ideal.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
Offline

Buhallin

  • Posts: 530
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:28 pm

None of the changes incoming for this set are really anything difficult, but that doesn't mean future ones won't be. Just trying to come up with an approach that maintains stability over the long run. Which may be hard, since I'm not sure Hawk has settled on how they're going to approach future releases yet :)
Offline
User avatar

Imm0rtal

  • Posts: 317
  • Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:48 pm
  • Location: In your base, killin' your dudes.

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 8:38 pm

You may get a better idea once the march units come out. If it is easy to put in the new units, then it would be awesome if you could. You could easily just tag them with EXP or some type of watermark. The new wave has a broad spectrum of different things:

Units that are gates - Firedrake
Units with multiple modes of travel - the Apollo and Annihilator
Units that count as 2 different categories - the Annihilator being an aircraft and land unit.
Units that buff other nearby units - Erebus and Dreamsnare
Units that are compound units - Drone Carrier
Units that modify their transports - Apollo and Erebus will give Neptunes an optional upgrade to make them faster
Units with weird firemodes - Firedrake has that weird shotgun blast.

And of course any weird special rules that could come with them.

Thinking of those mechanics might help when you plan for the future.
Always outnumbered, never outgunned.
Offline

Buhallin

  • Posts: 530
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 10:11 pm

Most of that actually fits pretty well into FFoR's structure already. I'm not inclined to start trying to dream up what Hawk might do next week though. I'll add things when they need to be added.

That's also not really what I'm trying to say here. Adding new stuff will be as easy or hard as it is, but it'll get added. What I don't want to do is put in a bunch of time coding features for rules that may get scrapped. On top of being a colossal waste of time for me, it introduces the potential for errors that I'd rather not risk.

So again, I'm going to see how these first couple of experimental efforts go. If they survive largely unchanged I'll feel a lot better about being more aggressive with the inclusion and updating of experimental units. Even then, it may depend on how often things change. People should be able to trust the stat sheets printed by FFoR, and that will be a lot harder if the experimental rules are being tweaked on a weekly basis. I'd rather have a unit missing than presenting inaccurate data.

Not saying I'm not going to do it... but I am being cautious about it.
Offline
User avatar

Dvalin

  • Posts: 536
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 3:56 pm
  • Location: Portland, OR

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostWed Feb 27, 2013 11:12 pm

You're being entirely too sensible. ;) This is the internet! I demand polemics!

That said, Dave has indicated that the transformation mechanic is going to be standardized, and that he intends to use it for more units going forward. The PHR Apollo and Scourge Annihilator both use this mechanic in different ways -- with an Annihilator being able to fly at will, and land when it wishes, or the Apollo doing a land-flight-land sequence within one turn, being (presumably) unable to sustain it for an extended period. This allows for the flying movement to be listed in its aircraft stat line, and also for a flying armor value that is lower than its grounded value. The basic template is likely to be present moving forward -- one stat line for flight, and the other for ground.

Still, no rush. ;) It'll probably be a few weeks 'til we see the provisional rules for these units.
Dropzone Commander:
PHR, a lot.
UCM, a lot.

Dropfleet Commander:
PHR, a lot.
UCM, a little.
Shaltari, a little.
Offline

Solvok

  • Posts: 62
  • Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 4:23 pm
  • Location: Fort Wayne, Indiana USA

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostSat Apr 20, 2013 9:52 pm

OK the minis our out so when are they going to be updated?
War is Hell, But everyone needs a hobby
More Human then Human, PHR all the way!
Offline

Buhallin

  • Posts: 530
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:54 pm

Re: Experimental units and FFoR?

PostMon Apr 22, 2013 8:12 pm

The minis are out, but the rules are still experimental. I'm also waiting on painted pictures of the new units. It may seem odd, but the images are actually the biggest deal - the vast majority of data in the FFoR download is image data, and because of the way it's packaged, a broad image change like this will mean a new, full download. I'd rather not force everyone to do that twice.

I'll admit that the process is taking longer than I had expected, so may go ahead and press forward here soon regardless.

Return to FFoR

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests

cron