It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 1:55 am


Dropfleet Deathclock...??

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Cry of the Wind

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 1026
  • Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 pm
  • Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostThu Aug 03, 2017 6:00 am

Couldn't agree more with J.D. and Skylifter-1000. This game is about tactics not combos and harsh clocks. Some turns take longer than others and even if the deathclock accounts for this it isn't what this game is about.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostThu Aug 03, 2017 6:12 am

J.D. Welch wrote:
Shikatanai wrote:
If you are not playing competitively I agree that a deathclock is not necessary. In competitive surroundings I think it's one of the best thing that can happen for a game. Especially if you can premeasure anything ;)
I think it is at least a good thing to think about in the future. Also don't forget that it is still possible to play Warma/Hordes without Deathclock :)

And in a Dropfleet tournament you know how long each round is. We all have smartphones with alarms and timers in them, it's a simple matter to set your alarm to go off, for example, 27 minutes before the end of the round and have three 9 minute snoozes to the end of the round. (That's how it works for an iPhone, not sure about an Android).

Like I said, if you want to use one, use one. If you want to organize a tournament where having and knowing how to use a Deathclock is a requirement to participate, hats off to you, and good luck; it would be an interesting experiment. I just don't think tournament games need to have that imposed on them; it's not necessary, and even Dropfleet games needn't be so cutthroat that a Deathclock becomes necessary. There's no purse on the line, but if you're that desperate for prize support, call a judge over to observe. There's lots of things you can do, and that the general community does, to self-police games such that you shouldn't have to require the added pressure of a Deathclock added to what should be friendlier games (even in a tournament setting) than other systems out there...


I don't really get what you mean with that we know how long a round is in DFC and how this is relevant for the topic. If there is no time management (e.g. Deathclock - could be less harsh if someone does not like deathclock. E.g. a VP penalty if the clock runs out) you can basicly measure everything you want before you do anything. If you want you can stall like forever and it is not possible to really do anything against it (without some kind of rule concerning time management). You are allowed to measure anything so you can do it and if you are forcing it it takes a lot of time.

Besides that I agree. Right now it's not in the rules. Will take a shot at doing it at some point in time for sure.

@Cry of the Wind
I don't get what this game would loose concerning tactics with a deathclock. It is still about tactics but also about how quick you can adapt your tactics. Of course some turns take longer but that's happening on both sides of the table, the crucial thing with Deathclocks is to generate the time for the important turns by having the overview to play the other turns fast. Imho in a wargame a time limitation is always fitting...
Offline
User avatar

J.D. Welch

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 5215
  • Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 am
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ, USA

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 4:51 am

And you have a time limitation in a tournament. A round is 3 hours long, judging by Hawk's latest 1,250 events. It's a simple matter to learn to manage your allotted time, and to politely but firmly let your opponent know if they are taking an inordinate amount of time to do anything, especially in the earlier turns.

Yes, you can premeasure everything, but you don't have to, and it should be abundantly clear if your opponent is abusing this aspect of the rules to try to stall out the game and prevent a Turn 6 scoring. If you can't manage a situation like this in a gentlemanly manner, I don't know what to tell you.

The reality, as I've seen it, is that people take a long time to get their turns in because they are still new to the game. Forcing them to lose because they are learning the rules and how to play each turn doesn't improve the environment; it simply frustrates new players, which retards growth of the community, and is generally unhealthy, in this case. As people get more experience (the game is only 10 months old) their games naturally get shorter. (When I played WarmaHordes, the Deathclock wasn't a part of tournaments yet; it grew into it because of abuses. What does that tell you about that community?)

WarmaHordes can keep the Deathclock, and you can keep WarmaHordes. I just don't think it's necessary for Dropfleet or Dropzone.

But that's my opinion.

'Nuff said... I'm out...
I love my job (well, I love having a job), but a bad day of gaming beats a good day of work every time!

http://www.theroadtovalhalla.blogspot.com
Offline
User avatar

Skylifter-1000

  • Posts: 97
  • Joined: Fri Sep 23, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 5:59 am

J.D. Welch wrote:And you have a time limitation in a tournament. A round is 3 hours long, judging by Hawk's latest 1,250 events. It's a simple matter to learn to manage your allotted time, and to politely but firmly let your opponent know if they are taking an inordinate amount of time to do anything, especially in the earlier turns.

Yes, you can premeasure everything, but you don't have to, and it should be abundantly clear if your opponent is abusing this aspect of the rules to try to stall out the game and prevent a Turn 6 scoring. If you can't manage a situation like this in a gentlemanly manner, I don't know what to tell you.

The reality, as I've seen it, is that people take a long time to get their turns in because they are still new to the game. Forcing them to lose because they are learning the rules and how to play each turn doesn't improve the environment; it simply frustrates new players, which retards growth of the community, and is generally unhealthy, in this case. As people get more experience (the game is only 10 months old) their games naturally get shorter. (When I played WarmaHordes, the Deathclock wasn't a part of tournaments yet; it grew into it because of abuses. What does that tell you about that community?)

WarmaHordes can keep the Deathclock, and you can keep WarmaHordes. I just don't think it's necessary for Dropfleet or Dropzone.

But that's my opinion.

'Nuff said... I'm out...


Again, I totally agree with this.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 6:11 am

J.D. Welch wrote:And you have a time limitation in a tournament. A round is 3 hours long, judging by Hawk's latest 1,250 events. It's a simple matter to learn to manage your allotted time, and to politely but firmly let your opponent know if they are taking an inordinate amount of time to do anything, especially in the earlier turns.

Yes, you can premeasure everything, but you don't have to, and it should be abundantly clear if your opponent is abusing this aspect of the rules to try to stall out the game and prevent a Turn 6 scoring. If you can't manage a situation like this in a gentlemanly manner, I don't know what to tell you.

The reality, as I've seen it, is that people take a long time to get their turns in because they are still new to the game. Forcing them to lose because they are learning the rules and how to play each turn doesn't improve the environment; it simply frustrates new players, which retards growth of the community, and is generally unhealthy, in this case. As people get more experience (the game is only 10 months old) their games naturally get shorter. (When I played WarmaHordes, the Deathclock wasn't a part of tournaments yet; it grew into it because of abuses. What does that tell you about that community?)

WarmaHordes can keep the Deathclock, and you can keep WarmaHordes. I just don't think it's necessary for Dropfleet or Dropzone.

But that's my opinion.

'Nuff said... I'm out...


So what is an inordinate amount of time? That's completely subjective! How long is it ok the think about what Orders you give, where your ship goes or where it shoots at...
It's also not about gentelmanly manner. I think it is perfectly fine to measure everything you want as it is part of the rules. If you want to check if something can reach you or not within a certain amount of turns it's fine.

Concerning the new Players: Every new player can decide how fast he hits the competitive field or not. A brand new player that goes to a tournament will often have a frustrating experience as much more experienced players with much better fleet builds will just run over him.

I'm not even playing Warma/Hordes since a long time. I also don't think it is definetly necessary and everybody who dislikes it does not have to play with it and I respect your opinion. I just think it would make tournament organisation easier (timetables) and would add new spice to the game (especially for tournament oriented play) and would fit the feeling of a wargame. However, I agree that it might be quite difficult to implement it. Did a first trial and it did not go as well as I thought it would - a lot of things to consider.

So let's agree to disagree 07
Offline

wundergoat

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2015 8:42 am

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 6:25 am

I feel like a deathclock is just a solution looking for a problem. Is time actually an issue at tournaments? I get how a WAAC player can abuse time limits, but then the first line of defense should be the TO and the second should be rules changes that don't involve buying new hardware and adding complication.

I'll be honest, I probably would not attend a tourney using clocks. Just googling deathclocks and reading people's comments gives me the impression that if anything, they encourage WAAC and other negative mentalities. "Are you deciding to play your command card? Do that on your own time." God that would infuriate me :evil:
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 8:05 am

wundergoat wrote:I feel like a deathclock is just a solution looking for a problem. Is time actually an issue at tournaments? I get how a WAAC player can abuse time limits, but then the first line of defense should be the TO and the second should be rules changes that don't involve buying new hardware and adding complication.

I'll be honest, I probably would not attend a tourney using clocks. Just googling deathclocks and reading people's comments gives me the impression that if anything, they encourage WAAC and other negative mentalities. "Are you deciding to play your command card? Do that on your own time." God that would infuriate me :evil:


I did not have time issues and I think 1250 Pts can be played in 3 hours in any case. Some players did have time issues at the first tournament I participated... It seemed like a general issue at the last polish tournament, where it even changed the final results, so it is not that uncommon I guess.
I also do not think that the TO is a good way to solve this problem because it is, again, completely subjective and it is also completely subjective what a person tells the TO as the TO cannot be at all tables at the same time ;) If I want to measure a lot of threatranges at a certain point in the game it is perfectly fine, someone might see that as stalling as well. The good thing about a clock is that it is comepletely objective.

Your last point is valid though... the main issues would be implementing it in a reasonable way which is relatively hard because of the game structure, so this might be indeed a thing that kills the game with a clock.

I like the idea of somehow changing the rules if it is still a problem (I agree we need to see a lot more tournaments to really judge if there are timeissues or not) but I really hate the possibility that something like at this last polish tournament is happening (btw. no offense, I don't think anyone stalled on purpose), it just does not feel right. Maybe it already would help to do scoring at T5 if the game cannot be finished in time.
Offline
User avatar

Cry of the Wind

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 1026
  • Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 pm
  • Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 6:15 pm

wundergoat wrote:I feel like a deathclock is just a solution looking for a problem. Is time actually an issue at tournaments? I get how a WAAC player can abuse time limits, but then the first line of defense should be the TO and the second should be rules changes that don't involve buying new hardware and adding complication.

I'll be honest, I probably would not attend a tourney using clocks. Just googling deathclocks and reading people's comments gives me the impression that if anything, they encourage WAAC and other negative mentalities. "Are you deciding to play your command card? Do that on your own time." God that would infuriate me :evil:


This is another good way of looking at it, a solution looking for a problem. I have never had an issue with tourament times in almost 20 years of playing in tournaments for WHFB, W40k and Warmahordes (before deathclock and after). Maybe once or twice I heard of people slow playing but the TO always got involved and fixed it. If you stay quiet when someone is being unsporting to you that is your problem for letting them walk over you when the event should have someone that can back you up. Just calling someone over to watch you game for a bit should be enough to discourage a dishonest player.

Shikatanai, the point isn't that deathclocks change tactics but rather some players are faster than others and some are a little slower. Generally speaking letting both players play without any extra added pressure makes the game more fun and relaxed (which it should be even in a tournament) and very rarely does it impact how long the game is going to take. If you have two slow players against each other the outcome with a deathclock won't change. They may reach turn 6 that way but half their ships haven't moved/fired/whatever and so the game will be a wash anyway. All you are doing is adding extra pressure and logistics for little if any gain while putting people into a more competitive and rushed mindset which doesn't foster a good enviroment.
Offline

Shikatanai

  • Posts: 145
  • Joined: Tue Jul 11, 2017 7:54 pm

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Aug 04, 2017 10:59 pm

Cry of the Wind wrote:
wundergoat wrote:I feel like a deathclock is just a solution looking for a problem. Is time actually an issue at tournaments? I get how a WAAC player can abuse time limits, but then the first line of defense should be the TO and the second should be rules changes that don't involve buying new hardware and adding complication.

I'll be honest, I probably would not attend a tourney using clocks. Just googling deathclocks and reading people's comments gives me the impression that if anything, they encourage WAAC and other negative mentalities. "Are you deciding to play your command card? Do that on your own time." God that would infuriate me :evil:


Shikatanai, the point isn't that deathclocks change tactics but rather some players are faster than others and some are a little slower. Generally speaking letting both players play without any extra added pressure makes the game more fun and relaxed (which it should be even in a tournament) and very rarely does it impact how long the game is going to take. If you have two slow players against each other the outcome with a deathclock won't change. They may reach turn 6 that way but half their ships haven't moved/fired/whatever and so the game will be a wash anyway. All you are doing is adding extra pressure and logistics for little if any gain while putting people into a more competitive and rushed mindset which doesn't foster a good enviroment.


You have your right to dislike Deathclocks but I can't agree this particular point.
If you bring in Deathclocks you can guarantee that a game will be finished and actually I play more stressed if I know my opponent plays slow and we might not end T6 if I know the final scoring will change the outcome. Also if both players are slow it does not mean that the outcome is the same - e.g. there are factions that can play certain scenarios much faster / more effective early on than others - same applies for certain lists.

I also would see the abilitiy to judge situations faster than your opponent as a valid skill that should be honored in general.
Offline
User avatar

Phototoxin

  • Posts: 30
  • Joined: Tue Jun 02, 2015 2:10 am
  • Location: Southampton, UK

Re: Dropfleet Deathclock...??

PostFri Sep 08, 2017 9:40 pm

Deathclocks seem terrible for a game like DFC/DZC where there's a lot of to-ing and fro-ing.

Also as it is a smaller/higher scale than some wargames it's probably easier/better for both players to each get X turns rather than one player get (X/2)+1 turns so to speak.

We see this a fair amount in Infinity where one player can get 3 turns and the other only 2 so it's not fair at all, especially as 1st turn is a massive bonus and last turn should make up for that but .. time up!

Similarly slow play is an issue in CCGs like Magic & Pokémon (yes really! :roll: ). I think for tournaments organisers should be realistic about the scenarios chosen and experience of players attending.

I know one TO who, when running a tournament for a new-ish system will check lists before hand, veto idiot lists (2,34,056 units - do you think you can move all them in the time given?!) and make sure that there's enough time. It's a lot of work but it's why his events are pretty amazing. <3

After one or two events, having gotten a feel of the system scenarios and timings can be nailed down. Veteran players who can use that list with a bajillion players are welcome to bring them etc.
If you play DzC on the south coast of the UK, join the South Coast Dropzone Commander Facebook group for the latest info on local events, news, to meet other local players and hear about tournaments!
PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests