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"Fixing" the game

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Dheran

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Re: "Fixing" the game

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 9:56 am

Couple of points about Nickar:
- Whether it has or hasn't Outlier, it doesn't impact Nickar's efficiency in killing stuff in atmo. IMO it defines Nickar as corvette that has to be used slightly differently and therefore should stay.
- Giving Scald to Nickars may result in Glass all over again. I mean it could then become a better choice than Djinn in killing stuff outside atmo.
- Having read your points about efficiency of corvettes in killing stuff, I believe that the main issue with Nickar is its lack of consistency in low numbers. So instead of having a random number of shots, it should have a flat number, e.g. 4 at 4+ (assuming other corvettes get boosted per what you wrote above) or 3 at 3+ (didn't do math on this).
So we could change Shaltari to X shots at 5+, PHR and UCM to 4 shots at 4+ and Scourge to 3 shots at 3+?

EDIT: PHR corvettes actually could stay at 3 shots at 4+, because of them being essentially micro-frigates and their strike carriers being so much better than other races in survival.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: "Fixing" the game

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 1:14 pm

Well, the main issue thus far is that Corvettes should be better at killing Strike Carriers, but they shouldn't be better than they are now in orbital combat. This means that something needs to be done or added so that they're better in atmosphere, against atmospheric targets, than they are in orbit.

As it stands, -1 lock in atmos against atmos works extremely well for the Santiago/Echo and Nickar, with no further changes needed to their stat line. The problem arises with the Glass, which becomes far better than any other corvette while being much cheaper. Thus, -1 lock isn't the way to go.

Consider instead buffing the statlines, by having A2A weapons shot at anything out of atmos or from out of atmos result in a +1 malus to lock.
With that in mind, consider the following stalines:
Santiago/Echo:
4+ lock, 4 attack, 1 damage, etc etc

Nickar:
4+ lock, 2d3 attack, 1 damage, w/ scald

Glass:
5+ lock, 5 attack, 1 damage, CAW(beam)

With this, the Santiago/Echo have their average damage improved about 33%, the Nickar about 33% (16% without scald), and the Glass gets a slight improvement, but otherwise stays the same.

However, because of the -1 malus against anything NOT in atmos, suddenly all the corvettes become very poor orbital fighters (with the exception of the Echo, which still has its gun).
This doesn't include PD, as I'm still working out my personal simulation to include it, but as it stands with the above changes, these are the following probabilities for varying amounts of corvettes to cripple or outright destroy a Strike Carrier (do at least 2 damage / do at least 4 damage) for 3+, 4+, and 5+ armor, respectively:

1 Santiago/Echo: 31.12% cripple, 0.60% destroy; 40.68% cripple, 1.23% destroy; 50.442% cripple, 2.29% destroy
2 Santiago/Echo: 69.83% cripple, 15.57% destroy; 80.43% cripple, 26.01% destroy; 88.21% cripple, 38.04% destroy
3 Santiago/Echo: 88.71% cripple, 43.693% destroy; 94.57% cripple, 60.62% destroy; 97.68% cripple, 75.12% destroy

1 Nickar: 39.85% cripple, 2.58% destroy; 48.79% cripple, 4.26% destroy; 57.11% cripple, 6.84% destroy
2 Nickar: 78.36% cripple, 27.66% destroy; 85.95% cripple, 37.79% destroy; 91.20% cripple, 49.61% destroy
3 Nickar: 93.49% cripple, 59.39% destroy; 96.79% cripple, 72.61% destroy; 98.49% cripple, 82.77% destroy

2 Glass: 30.75% cripple, 1.88% destroy; 51.73% cripple, 7.05% destroy; 68.82% cripple, 16.21% destroy
3 Glass: 50.77% cripple, 7.43% destroy; 74.29% cripple, 23.28% destroy; 87.75% cripple, 42.28% destroy
4 Glass: 66.52% cripple, 17.43% destroy; 85.86% cripple, 43.27% destroy; 95.55% cripple, 68.05% destroy
5 Glass: 78.48% cripple, 30.00% destroy; 93.70% cripple, 61.68% destroy; 96.46% cripple, 84.02% destroy
6 Glass: 86.02% cripple, 42.94% destroy; 96.97% cripple, 75.81% destroy; 99.50% cripple, 92.51% destroy

So, with that huge number dump out of the way, a few things to note/conclude!
Firstly, do keep in mind that all these values are simulated, not derived. These aren't overly accurate simulations either, only doing 100,000 experiments per result, and these do NOT include the effects of PD.
Secondly, we can see a few interesting things here:
Even with 2d3 being, on the average, equal to 4 attacks, the Nickar gets a noticeable edge thanks to Scald, but not an overwhelming one.
All these, in general, meet our criteria that were set about before, those being:
1 corvette will possibly (but not probably) cripple a Strike Carrier and probably not destroy it
2 corvettes will probably cripple a Strike Carrier and possibly (but not probably) destroy it.
3 corvettes will definitely cripple a Strike Carrier and probably destroy it.
With these changes, all corvettes meet these criteria.
Overall, the Nickar dominates against 3+ armored targets (the PHR), with the Glass being the best against 5+ armored targets, with the Santiago/Echo resting soundly in the middle.
I'd say this works out just fine; bump the Nickar up to 24 or 25 points, keep the Santiago and Echo where they are (since the Echo still has its gun), and keep the Glass where it is now as well (since two glass do 20% more damage on average than a single Santiago but cost around 70% more)

As for where all this sits in terms of orbital combat, with a +1 malus to lock, the following is the average damage for the modified corvettes against 3+, 4+, and 5+ armor respectively:

Santiago: 0.44 damage; 0.67 damage; 0.89 damage
Nickar: 0.64 damage; 0.89 damage; 1.11 damage
Echo (w/ gun): 1.01 damage; 1.33 damage; 1.67 damage
1x Glass: 0.28 damage; 0.42 damage; 0.56 damage

I don't know about you, but those seem like suitably poor numbers to me! Without making this post even longer than it has to be. I feel like the stat changes proposed, those being restated below, would work the best for overall corvette rebalance:
A2A: +1 lock penalty when not firing at targets in atmosphere AND from in atmosphere.
Santiago/Echo: CAW attacks up to 4.
Nickar: Plasma Squall attacks changed to 2d3, add Scald, points up to 24/25, add Outlier
Glass: Ion Lances becomes CAW(Beam)

As for the Nickar having Outlier, I really see no reason why it shouldn't. It just creates a needless restriction on something literally called a "hunter-killer" that should be free to head to the back line.
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Admiral JCJF

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Re: "Fixing" the game

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 8:12 pm

I still think that a one-line fix to "Air-to-Air" is a better path to pursue, rather than individual changes (in some cases quite substantial) to all the different Corvettes.

And the Nickar would be a nightmare in orbit if given 2d3 with Scald... an absolute NIGHTMARE!

I'm not sure any of us want that.

(well, to be fair, there is a LITTLE bit of me that wants that... :twisted: )

If the -1 Lock works too well for the Glass (and I'm not sure that it does, once you allow for 4+ armour and Point Defense of 2 it's only doing barely over 1 damage per Glass per turn as long as it doesn't ALSO have Beam) then +2 Attack in Atmosphere might do the trick.
Why would we waste words on Prey?
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Lordprinceps

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Re: "Fixing" the game

PostWed Nov 15, 2017 8:36 pm

I'd have to agree on that first part, JCJF. If reducing corvette lock by 1 in atmos worked, I'd personally go with that much more elegant solution.
However, the math just doesn't work out nicely (although I don't have time to go over it now), so the next best thing is an improvement to the corvette statlines coupled with a lock malus in orbit or against orbit.

In essence, the weapon stats would look like the following in atmosphere, and then in orbit:

Santiago/Echo Stingray Missiles / Vespa Drones
Atmosphere against Atmosphere:
4+ lock, 4 attack, 1 damage, CAW, A2A
Elsewise:
5+ lock, 4 attack, 1 damage, CAW, A2A

Nickar (and outlier) Plasma Squall
Atmosphere against Atmosphere:
4+ lock, 2d3 attack, 1 damage, CAW, A2A, Scald
Elsewise:
5+ lock, 2d3 attack, 1 damage, CAW, A2A, Scald

Glass Ion Lances
Atmosphere against Atmosphere:
5+ lock, 5 attack, 1 damage, CAW(BEAM), A2A
Elsewise:
6+ lock, 5 attack, 1 damage, CAW(BEAM), A2A

So, basically, it makes the current corvettes somewhere around 33% better than they are now, but only in atmos against atmos.
Literally everywhere else; Orbit against atmos, atmos against orbit, orbit against orbit, they're near irredeemable trash with the exception of the Echo which can still contribute with its gun,

Personally, I think that sounds fair! :lol:
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