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Drop Spam Commander

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
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Intruder313

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostSat Feb 03, 2018 7:46 pm

Regarding Corvettes: agreed

But I think more likely we'll see Monitors have some form of anti-Strike Carrier ability from within Atmo, or a dedicated Destroyer type like a modern Sumarine Hunter :)

I hope so, because right now Strike Carriers get to Atmo and are then basically sat there pumping out troops for the rest of the game!
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AdamJHilton

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 4:53 pm

[Forgive the (?)'s as I'm writing this post at work without the rulebook in front of me.]

I'm new to DFC, but I've been playing miniature wargames for almost 30 years; and competitively for the past 20. When I found this thread, I started to really get discouraged about committing my time and resources to getting into this game. If the meta is this fundamentally flawed, I should probably wait until v2.0 to comes out.

That being said, I'm trying to figure out how a skew list like this is a problem -- if you play with the tournament packet and use all the scenarios with the suggested approach types. I agreed that Drop Spam is a serious meta issue if you only play Take and Hold(?) using Battleline approach with standard scoring...

But:
* Space stations constitute roughly half the scoring potential of the scenarios
--- Strike carriers coming up to low orgit to contest them will be vaporized
--- Drop Spam won't have enough killy ships to destroy them
--- All it takes is for a tournament to run a single all-space-station scenario and Drop Spam won't win any podium positions
* Battleline approach is only the suggested approach type in 2(?) of the scenarios
--- Column and Distant(?) screw over Drop Spam as you can throw a pair of killy battle groups into the center of the table to intercept quite a few strike carriers in low orbit
* The tournament packet
--- Normalizes all sectors to 1VP each
--- Allows you to basically level clusters from orbit
--- Gives extra VP for killing enemy ships

Taken as a whole, I'm not seeing how Drop Spam is anything other than a cute gimmick. I realize I'm still getting into this game, so you'll have to forgive any ignorance on my part concerning the meta. Thoughts?
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Shikatanai

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 8:23 pm

AdamJHilton wrote:* Space stations constitute roughly half the scoring potential of the scenarios
--- Strike carriers coming up to low orgit to contest them will be vaporized
--- Drop Spam won't have enough killy ships to destroy them
--- All it takes is for a tournament to run a single all-space-station scenario and Drop Spam won't win any podium positions


That's not true. Actually Strikecarriers still work better than Troopships in Station heavy scenarios because you get more targets for your opponent to shoot down and because you also get more firepower.
There are still more VP in scoring Stations than Crits and Crits can be denied much easier.
You do not need as many "killy" ships because you can dictate the gamepace when having the drop advantage. Of course you can also overload lists with Strikecraft but e.g. ~14 Strikecarriers and a Troopship works out fine. Every Game I played up to now I'd consider the player with less strikecraft fighting an uphill battle because he needs to act and is set on a timer while the other player can sit back and react.
It even gets worse when we bring Shaltari into the equation...

AdamJHilton wrote:* Battleline approach is only the suggested approach type in 2(?) of the scenarios
--- Column and Distant(?) screw over Drop Spam as you can throw a pair of killy battle groups into the center of the table to intercept quite a few strike carriers in low orbit


That won't work and is not at all cost efficient. Strikecraft can get to safety very fast and if someone commits a low SR frigate group on destroying one or two strikecarriers (do the math on it) you will realize that you throw away way too much. This tactic is viable as long as an opponent brings way too less strikecraft and thus not being able to buffer up some losses. Corvettes do not trade efficiently at all, so you basicly have 1 turn to reach the strikecarriers.
Only low SR Frigate groups can do it and you basicly reduce your own drop capacity early on - e.g. on Column if you have the choice to play 2x6 Strikecarriers and instead 6 Strikecarriers and 5 Frigates you will still have the early drop advantage and those 5 frigates are toast.

AdamJHilton wrote:* The tournament packet
--- Normalizes all sectors to 1VP each
--- Allows you to basically level clusters from orbit
--- Gives extra VP for killing enemy ships


Sector normalization doesn't change anything for scoring if you get the ground advantage - it just increases the chance of a draw at a cluster but therefore you need enough troops yourself.
Leveling Clusters is no way near cost efficient, Bombardment is too easy to prevent and it is way too easy to react if someone wants to really deny one complete cluster. The Bombardment mechanic is just not worth considering at all besides two scenarios not present in the tournament pack.
Extra VP for killing ships is nearly not relevant. Never had any game where this mattered much. Usually both opponents loose a fairly similar amount of Pts except it is a stomp for one side anyway. Strikecraft also is the safest stuff you can get for denying killpoints.

The question is what is considered spam. If you just bring in every strikecraft you can you will not place on top. If you do rely mainly on groundforces and selected fighting forces you will have best chances to do so. I'd never go out with less than 12+ drop. Imho one of the keys that a lot of people miss is the way a strong groundgame influences the game in Orbit, if someone plays uphill on the ground he needs to pressure in Orbit, getting nearly all or most of the crits. This brings you in perfect positon for choosing the fights you want enabeling to work with less fighting vessels because you can start the trading how you want. In addition critical locations can be denied pretty easy at least T4.
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AdamJHilton

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostThu Feb 08, 2018 9:38 pm

@Shikatanai

Space stations:
The point I was getting at was that if strike carriers are in low orbit to contest space stations, they no longer have the protection of the atmosphere and are now easy targets. It won't take a fleet with a significant advantage in fighting vessels to kill them all. Even with the firepower advantage of strike carriers over troopships, that's still not enough to effectively fight against a more balanced fleet.

I do see your point on more strike carriers equating to having the luxury of reaction.

(Also, I assume you meant "strike carriers" when you said "strike craft".)


Approaches
The scenario I had in my Think Part was for a Column approach:

The UCM (Drop Spam) player commits two light battlegroups of 6 New Orleans each on turn one: standard orders, low orbit, 10" up the board.

The Scourge player commits a light battlegroup with 9 Djinns and lets say a line battlegroup with a couple Sphinxes on turn one: max thrust orders, low orbit, 24"/20" up the board.

Turn 2, UCM player goes first and gets 6 New Orleans into atmosphere. Then 9 Djinns kill the other 6 before they activate. They should have a theoretical range of 45" -- 42" for close action -- from their board edge to engage UCM frigates; and should still be far enough from the UCM's board edge to be out of range from return fire from battlegroups moving onto the board. And Now there are a couple of Sphinxes in the middle of the table to pounce on any more New Orleans that try to make atmosphere anywhere in the middle of the board.

Admittedly, that is a very rough setup, and dependent on the map layout; but that's what I was thinking.


Tournament Packet
Less points on the ground from normalized sectors means points in orbit are more important overall. I'd consider VP for killing, controlling CL's, and controlling space stations as 'orbital' points. Every little bit helps.

How do you prevent bombardment? I must have missed that in the rules. Anyway, a pair of Madrids for 158 points should basically level a cluster every other turn. Concentrate your strike carriers on clusters you want to contest and destroy the others. It's not like a Drop Spam list will have enough fighting ships to stop you. Admittedly, you could just bring 5 more New Orleans for the same points investment...

As for extra VP for killing ships, you should be on the winning side of that against a Drop Spam list as you'll kill everything not in atmosphere easily.


Good points on the ground game.


A Drop Spam list that don't seem very fun to play against would be like a 22 Medea, 3 Orpheus list (1248 points). If all those strike carriers got into atmosphere, you'd never kill them! At that point, why are you even playing DFC? It's just a 'game' of placing tokens on a map while your opponent rolls dice uselessly. I would like to play a game of exploding starships; not strategically placing tokens.
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Shikatanai

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 7:29 am

AdamJHilton wrote:The point I was getting at was that if strike carriers are in low orbit to contest space stations, they no longer have the protection of the atmosphere and are now easy targets. It won't take a fleet with a significant advantage in fighting vessels to kill them all. Even with the firepower advantage of strike carriers over troopships, that's still not enough to effectively fight against a more balanced fleet.


I did get your point but I still do not think that it changes much. The reason is that Troopships are still easier targets and less valuable (Infantery vs Tanks and Single Targets, higher Sig against several targets and less Sig). Yes you will loose strikecarriers faster of course but your opponent will loose his as well and most of the Points are still won by "Ground"combat. As long as you drop your opponent out you still gain the advantage and someone who brings even less strikecraft has much more problem getting anything done on the stations because he presents less valuable targets.

In addition I think you misscalculate - usually some strikecraft survives even that scenario because there are other things that your opponent needs to fight.

AdamJHilton wrote:(Also, I assume you meant "strike carriers" when you said "strike craft".)


I always include troopships just because PHR should rely more on them... but they circumvent most of their issues relatively well :)

AdamJHilton wrote:The UCM (Drop Spam) player commits two light battlegroups of 6 New Orleans each on turn one: standard orders, low orbit, 10" up the board.

The Scourge player commits a light battlegroup with 9 Djinns and lets say a line battlegroup with a couple Sphinxes on turn one: max thrust orders, low orbit, 24"/20" up the board.

Turn 2, UCM player goes first and gets 6 New Orleans into atmosphere. Then 9 Djinns kill the other 6 before they activate. They should have a theoretical range of 45" -- 42" for close action -- from their board edge to engage UCM frigates; and should still be far enough from the UCM's board edge to be out of range from return fire from battlegroups moving onto the board. And Now there are a couple of Sphinxes in the middle of the table to pounce on any more New Orleans that try to make atmosphere anywhere in the middle of the board.


The thing is that you need to commit your djinns to one spot while the UCM player will usually split his groups of 6 to several clusters. So e.g. in Take&Hold you split 2 left 2 right 2 middle - in any case (except you are lucky to draw taking the initiative) you will have the opportunity to kill 2 strikecarriers because the other 2 will be gone due to SR. That's just not worth the invest especially when you consider that those Djinns are now fucked up pretty much and cost a ton of Pts.

Again, such tactics work very nice when someone brings low amounts of strikecarriers but if you have plenty to replace them you do not have much of a problem. Your opponent will most likely not have brought the same amount when investing so much into a big Djinn group or he will loose a lot on Orbit effectivity because they are basicly sacrificed.
We tested a lot around small SR groups for getting rid of Strikecarriers early and it usually is not worth the effort except you see a weakness in drop of your opponent anyway. The only approach where I'd really consider it besides that is Distant because you can bring a low SR group without sacrificing early drop capacitiy.

AdamJHilton wrote:Tournament Packet
Less points on the ground from normalized sectors means points in orbit are more important overall. I'd consider VP for killing, controlling CL's, and controlling space stations as 'orbital' points. Every little bit helps.

How do you prevent bombardment? I must have missed that in the rules. Anyway, a pair of Madrids for 158 points should basically level a cluster every other turn. Concentrate your strike carriers on clusters you want to contest and destroy the others. It's not like a Drop Spam list will have enough fighting ships to stop you. Admittedly, you could just bring 5 more New Orleans for the same points investment...

As for extra VP for killing ships, you should be on the winning side of that against a Drop Spam list as you'll kill everything not in atmosphere easily.


It is not less points on the ground! You need to reread scoring ;) the Value of Sectors is not the Victorypoints you get. They are just the tool to measure who gets points for winning / contesting the Cluster.

The thing with bombardment was discussed a lot before but I'll go into it one more time:
Two madrid are plenty of Points with SR10... so basicly equal 5 Strikecarriers. Just for denying points! Instead of the opportunity to gain them yourself.
1.) they can be shot down really easily. They need to get to the Clusters and need to expose them while it is not hard to kill them.
2.) if you want to deny points you will not want to deny them from yourself so you get in a difficult spot what to do - commit your own strikecraft to the cluster? Won't work out as well because with good dropping behaviour your opponent will a.) be able to save most of his troops from your bombardment and b.) you will potentially kill your own VP if you commit enough troops to the cluster to win it.
3.) Last but not least one could use them to really deny a cluster completely. The problem with that is that you need to do it fast but you will need at minimum 3 shooting rounds to do it. So if you want to deny at T4 you need to bring those Madrids T1 which a.) makes them a good target and b.) sacrificies early dropcapacity again while not even being sure to do it... even one dead Madrid is enough to stop this plan from happening AND your opponent can relocate his dedicated Dropships very easily to another cluster as denial is quite obvious.

Overall I'd NEVER take madrids and instead 5 more Strikcarriers (or something else for Orbitfight) and to be honest I really do not understand how people think that they are actually viable... in addition they are completely or a lot less useless in station based szenarios.

AdamJHilton wrote:A Drop Spam list that don't seem very fun to play against would be like a 22 Medea, 3 Orpheus list (1248 points). If all those strike carriers got into atmosphere, you'd never kill them! At that point, why are you even playing DFC? It's just a 'game' of placing tokens on a map while your opponent rolls dice uselessly. I would like to play a game of exploding starships; not strategically placing tokens.


That's also a list that won't work out in a tournament... but most people also complain about e.g. 12-14 Strikecarriers and that's a must have imho... just because you need to play as many objectives as possible. Here we are at the point of "where does spam start"...
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_ghost_

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 10:07 am

But its statet on the tournament Pack that each destroyed Sektor reduces the scoring Level. Thus a bigCluster becomes a Medium one. A Medium one a small one. So Bombardement greatly reduce thr VP of the bigger ones.
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dread2005

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 10:50 am

_ghost_ wrote:But its statet on the tournament Pack that each destroyed Sektor reduces the scoring Level. Thus a bigCluster becomes a Medium one. A Medium one a small one. So Bombardement greatly reduce thr VP of the bigger ones.


Well yes Ghost and i talkt about this!

the UCM Madrid for example can easy bombard a Big Cluster into a Small in 2 if you have bad luck 3 turns!

a Small Cluster gives 1 VP a critical Location 2 VP

this in mind a squad of Madirds can hold the Critical and they are very good in it Cheap cost, high SR and good CAW (grouped!)

so 3x 2 Madrids can kill any Strike spam list, because most of the Missions are designed that you need 3/5 to win a game!



but be aware this are right now only Turmanet Ruels of the 2017 Pack, but we play frindly games as well like this
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
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dread2005

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 10:54 am

here sample list how i would counter Strike Carrier lists

the San Franciscos will help me with Space Stations, as well a squad of San Frans can handle up to 8 Strike Carrier troops

because, be aware. To hold a Sector you need more "tokens" than the opponent. Well 6 inf tokens are mor than 4 tank tokens...

if i move up slowly with my Troopships (to live longer)! and i will not drop before Turn 4 (very important!)

if i drop Turn 4 12 Inf tokens! (2 Trooper) the oppnent cant start to kill my Tokens with tanks, because Ground Combat will start in T5 so i have my VP save allready!!



--------------------------------------
__1250UCM-—BJ und 2xTrooper und 4xMadrid - 1250pts
UCM - 0 launch assets

SR17 Flag battlegroup (326pts)
1 x Beijing - 252pts - S
   + UCM Admiral (100pts, 5AV)
2 x Lima - 74pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (254pts)
1 x San Francisco - 111pts - M
1 x San Francisco - 111pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR10 Line battlegroup (158pts)
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M

SR10 Line battlegroup (158pts)
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M

SR11 Pathfinder battlegroup (204pts)
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L
2 x Osaka - 172pts - M

SR3 Pathfinder battlegroup (110pts)
2 x Taipei - 78pts - L
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L
--------------------------------------
http://dflist.com/s/#/share/ad39517225178
--------------------------------------
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
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Shikatanai

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 12:34 pm

The thing about reducing clusters size includes a.) not bringing troops yourself or your opponent will just hold the cluster for at least 1 VP with one single Carrier or b.) you bring troops yourself limit your own bombardment options and also scoring options. The player with more strikecraft instead just has much more options to react to it while not loosing anything essential.
Besides that again: Madrids are, as any other cruiser easy to kill and they have to be at the hotspots where you basicly always can fire at them.

There is just no way where Madrids are worth more than additional strikecraft instead. Special scenarios aside... but these scenarios are a balancing mess anyway because other factions get much more flexible Bombardment.
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dread2005

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Re: Drop Spam Commander

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 1:16 pm

Shikatanai wrote:The thing about reducing clusters size includes a.) not bringing troops yourself or your opponent will just hold the cluster for at least 1 VP with one single Carrier or b.) you bring troops yourself limit your own bombardment options and also scoring options. The player with more strikecraft instead just has much more options to react to it while not loosing anything essential.
Besides that again: Madrids are, as any other cruiser easy to kill and they have to be at the hotspots where you basicly always can fire at them.

There is just no way where Madrids are worth more than additional strikecraft instead. Special scenarios aside... but these scenarios are a balancing mess anyway because other factions get much more flexible Bombardment.



i never say its a autowin i just want to show there are options against Strike Carriers, lots as i think

and byside, that i dont think its that easy to shoot all of my madrids, you trade 1 Madrid against 2 Strike carrier. the Madrids have much more tactic options.

someone which has 14 stirke carrier can not field plenty of Orbital Power anyway

this would be a typical list i think

--------------------------------------
___UCM Strike carrier spam - 1245pts
UCM - 3 launch assets

SR11 Vanguard battlegroup (195pts)
1 x Moscow - 163pts - H
   + UCM Commodore (40pts, 3AV)
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR12 Line battlegroup (240pts)
2 x New Cairo - 176pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L
1 x New Orleans - 32pts - L

SR5 Line battlegroup (132pts)
1 x Seattle - 132pts - M

SR12 Line battlegroup (274pts)
2 x Berlin - 210pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L
1 x New Orleans - 32pts - L

SR6 Pathfinder battlegroup (192pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L

SR6 Pathfinder battlegroup (192pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
------------- dflist.com -------------

so you have some laser power, but the thing is. i can go sielent running as soon i am finishd bombing

byside that, which Criticals can you hold? mybe you want some RIOs instead because Laser ships have better arcs by not trusting to the middel and critical locations


well i will stop here...

talk about is nice ill go and do some games, after i win ill come back here! ,-p

just need to finde some crazy player which has 12+ Strike Carriers... not at my place right now... ;-7
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
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