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Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

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AdamJHilton

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Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSat Feb 10, 2018 11:08 pm

I've been trying to push my gaming group towards DFC -- and then eventually DZC -- for a month or so now with mixed success. One thing we've noticed is that point for point, Scourge ships seem to outgun every other faction to an embarrassing degree. I realize we're all noobs at the game still, and we really don't have a local meta per se, but people are starting to become discouraged towards the other factions.

I realize that UCM can use the Limas to try and knock Scourge ships off silent running and get some sniping in; Shaltari will almost always get the alpha strike; and PHR are just tough as nails brawlers; but once the lines meet, Scourge just seem to auto-win the orbital battle. So, what are we missing here?
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Shikatanai

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 10:59 am

You are missing a lot imho. I personally would rate Scourge as the weakest faction overall right now (although some people definetly will disagree here).

DFC is usually not won in orbit but with groundassets. Scourge have great firepower but they are expensive and glasscannons. This leads to either relatively low amount of fighting ships or less strikecraft (they have the weakest dropgame overall imho). Both can be used to play around their strength.
In addition especially against hardhitting ships use of debrisfields helps a lot. This helps most if you are dictating the gamepace e.g. by having more groundassets leading to the fact that your opponent has to play aggressively - hide your ships behind (or maybe even in debris against Close Action based ships) and make sure you will get the first strike on key ships.

My impression in general is also that (new) players tend to underuse active scans (e.g. with UCM I run a New Orleans in basicly every Battlegroup just to have that additional scan if I need it) and premeasurement to get the best out of their turns - this also helps a lot against scourge as they are having the highest Sig in the game and are as said above glasscannons.
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SwordOfJustice

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 2:01 pm

I agree with the OP on this. I reckon Scourge are significantly too good for their points. I will try to play more this year to test it out more.
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Nobody

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 3:38 pm

I dunno, just about every tournament result I've seen had Scourge win with PHR and another Scourge fighting for 2nd and 3rd.

There is the occasional Shaltari win and UCM in the top 3, but it's usually Scourge.
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Shikatanai

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 4:09 pm

Nobody wrote:I dunno, just about every tournament result I've seen had Scourge win with PHR and another Scourge fighting for 2nd and 3rd.

There is the occasional Shaltari win and UCM in the top 3, but it's usually Scourge.


I'd argue that has a lot to do with listbuilding...
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juz

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostSun Feb 11, 2018 11:58 pm

it is List Building and its about positioning and playing to strength...

Scourge are easiest to play well with a stealth/atmospheric Frigate/launch skewed list...
But
UCM need active scan i.e need a lima group a should have points spare for them-then stealth becomes risky - use of launch is key here too as bombers laugh at silent running, corvettes managing/delaying atmosperic threats is key too.
A ucn player without limas must have a better plan ready...

PHR multiple dice broadsides can spam for 6s on atmospheric targets.

Shaltari gates need protection, perhaps glass.
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Gauntlet

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostMon Feb 12, 2018 12:25 am

While scourge are good, it's hardly their outright firepower... It's the stealth and speed.

But Shaltari remain "best in show" at 1250+ points in my opinion because of their greater scans, rediculous battleship and greater drop game.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostMon Feb 12, 2018 2:35 am

While I agree that the Scourge aren't the absolute best, it is fairly obvious that their strength isn't just speed/stealth, but also firepower.

Per point, Scourge cruisers and light cruisers boast the heaviest firepower out of any faction when going weapons free; while the cost of taking a major spike is further exacerbated by their +2" signature, being able to put out 5.00+ damage with a light cruiser is pretty significant. They're obviously not going to survive past that weapons free if their opponent isn't otherwise preoccupied, of course, but that's still quite a bit of damage.

Their beams are, interestingly enough, actually slightly more powerful than the UCM's on the "wide" alt-fire, albeit lacking flash, of course. They're not so much more powerful that it's a significant difference, but it's enough to note; I'd still personally rate the Scourge's beams to be the weakest part of the arsenal, however.

The Akuma, of course, is absolutely insane. Up to 8.00 damage per turn with no penalty, thanks to cloak, or 3.00 damage per turn while coasting in on stealth?

The Scourge most certainly have some strong ships amongst their roster, and firepower is one of the major plus-es to their name. While Overall I wouldn't call them unbalanced, there's certainly a few ships in their roster that are exceedingly efficient, to put it mildly.
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Stompzilla

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostMon Feb 12, 2018 11:22 am

The biggest problem to my mind is just how overcosted everything is in the UCM list (With the exception of perhaps the burnthroughs).

When you consider that 110pts gets you an Amber and 115 gets you a Sphinx, tell me again how a Moscow is worth 163, a Rio 105, a Seattle worth 132(?!!!), and an Atlantis 205!

For less than the cost of one New York york you can get 2 x Seattles with better firepower, more speed and more Hull and the seattle group is still a largely junk points sink that you will regret building after a hald dozen games, in a competetive environment.

For my money the Shaltari are still king (Looking at you Void Gate Charged Air Batteries), Scourge are very good but outside of certain (Laser & Strike carrier spam) builds the UCM are just not very good. The PHR are about right to my mind but would not be outraged to see some price drops for some of the broadside bruiser cruisers.
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Shikatanai

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Re: Are Scourge Really That Over Powered?

PostMon Feb 12, 2018 12:01 pm

I think the big advantage of UCM over scourge is having ships that do their job well without going WF. This brings two main advantages.
1.) you are running scans much better. BTL ships combined with any frigate (preferably New Orleans of course) pair very well because you will always be able to get out at least 1 or even 2 scans (if you position well) without reducing your overall firepower.
2.) you have a lot more flexbility concerning layers. One of the main disadvantages running mainly WF ships is that you have to basicly commit to a certain layer early on or loose a lo of your firepower. Usually you want to get down to low asap to get down potential troopships or ships that will control Crits. This allows certain shiptypes (BTL ships, Carriers) to stay in High until you want to dish out damage. It also reduces impact of those ships when they enter the battlefield later on - there is usually no issue to get some key targets into range... but you have to take a difficult decision in going WF or taking the layer drop. BTL ships do not have this issue.

That's the main reason why I would rate UCM above Scourge right now. Getting firststrikes / more potent firststrikes is one of the main keys, also the potent ships are a little cheaper for their value imho allowing to get more strikecraft enabling even moe efficient firststrikes / trading as your opponent has to play more straight forward and aggressively.
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