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Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

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Stompzilla

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 8:33 am

This is really good work Lorn. I'm a fan.

I actually tried a few of these changes last night. VGs don't suffer overly from having their battery reduced to 6+. That change works well.

We also discussed your bombardment changes and will be using them going forwards. The game would have been better with them for sure.

Likewise we followed your procedure for knocking ships off silent running. Tbh I'd always assumed that this was the way anyhow, as it seems intuitive.

Points changes i haven't tried because I'm lazy/ mad busy and DF list is super convenient but to me they look good.

Personally I think a fussilade based solution to boost phr broadsides would be a more exciting fix than hull points but i haven't had time to run any numbers.
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 2:07 pm

Thanks, glad you are liking the changes.

I think the Fusillade change for Broadside works balance wise but I preferred the Hull change I might add it and a similar solution for UCM Massdrivers as an alternative/optional rule for people that dislike the Hull changes or the price drops for UCM. Though it would require a different repricing of point costs, so that might take some time.

If you any other feedback or suggestion feel free to add them.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Stompzilla

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 4:17 pm

It makes more sense for UCM to be more numerous for sure.

Price drops would be my ideal fix for the UCM too.

I would question giving the Chromium to atmospheric. It completely changes it's role and i don't think Shaltari need it.

That being said, they were incredible at lighting up targets for destruction in the first game I've used them in (Last night), so maybe the role change is not a bad thing. I would be sad to lose my new toys though.
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 6:40 pm

The main idea for the Cromium is that Corvettes are still not great at destroying Medeas as those sport 5 Hull and 3+ armour, that is the niche I wanted to put the Cromium in, as I disliked giving the Shaltari simply a good small BTL. In particular as they got a Mauler one as well which is a close action BTL and would be a bit too specialised if it got atmospheric as well.

Though I might further buff the non-Kiev atmospheric Destroyers to bring it to a level comparable to the latter.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Wulfyn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostThu May 03, 2018 3:45 pm

I would rather see Torpedoes as a disruptive weapon rather than as a pure damage dealer. Although it sounds nice fluff wise, if all you are doing is making a long winded clunky-mechanic damage dealing weapon you may as well save the time by just boosting the other weapons more. Instead I'd rather see them have unique rules that creates a unique play style. Namely I'd want them to have the potential to do a huge amount of damage as a scare tactic, but have the application of that data based on a different mechanic to a standard hit roll - namely in disrupting enemy manoeuvres.


Here's the basic idea:

- Doesn't count towards launch assets as per Lorn's suggestion.
- Has to be fired as step 2 of the launch phase (as per current rules), and a token is placed.
- Works like bombers in that the token is resolved at the end of the launch phase if in range, or at the end of that ship's next turn if in 2x range.
- Range of Heavy Torpedoes is 6", and Light Torpedoes is 12". Scan/sigs/spikes/stealth don't alter this.
- No PD vs Torpedoes, and shields are also ineffective (use the non-shield profile)
- Torpedoes make 1 roll to hit, and target is based upon orders of the target ship only.
- Torpedoes may not cause critical hits, and if they miss they are removed from play.
- All 'damage' counts as separate 1-damage hits, with a saving throw made individually against each point of damage on the weapon
- The damage value should be scary high! Possible additional effects too.


Hit roll required based on ship orders of that turn if within range, and what they do next turn if in 2x range:
- 2+ for Station Keeping & Weapons Free
- 4+ for anything else
- 6+ for Max Thrust or Course Change.
- Light Torpedoes hit 1 better (1+ (i.e. auto), 3+, 5+)


The purpose of this weapon then becomes fleet disruption. In particular it is designed to be anti-weapons free. If a big enemy ship wants to go WF and is near a torpedo-boat then it knows doing so risks taking a lot of damage. Or it could decide to manoeuvre to prevent the damage, which means the Torpedo boat has the desired effect of suppressing enemy fire. This is why it is critical that it uses the orders of that turn for ships that are within range, because it forces the enemy commander to make a decision before knowing what it going to happen - the essential aspect of a suppression weapon.

In order to make it scary it needs to have volatility in the result. This is because we don't want it to be too powerful on average, but we want it to have the potential to be very powerful as this can scare people. This is also why it should always have armour saves - that allows us to push the damage higher without making it too powerful. For example knowing that most big enemy ships have a 3+ armour save you could make a Heavy Torpedo have 24 damage. The average is 8 (which is not that powerful given that you have to be close and still make the hit roll), but has the potential to be really scary (imagine rolling 15 1's and 2's in your saves!).

That creates the problem of Torpedo spam - you want the weapon to suppress but not be blindly fired every turn. So this means that they must be limited as well. Having only one torpedo means you still get the suppression effect, but as soon as you have fired it that suppression is gone for the rest of the battle. That means that the controlling player must also make a choice about when to use it; will you take out that heavy cruiser that just went weapons free, or save it for the battleship coming forwards. I think that this means that the best players will know when not to use it.

Light Torpedoes I see being more multiple use, multiple shot, lower damage so that they are better suited for taking out cruisers and frigates (something like 6 or 8 damage here), and doesn't scare the bigger stuff at all.

It also, if they are foolish enough to get into range, gives you a weapon that will really scare Shaltari ships.


It also speeds the game up by not having it hang around multiple turns, is often not used at all, and works in a similar way as an established mechanic of bombers. And finally I think something like this is a lot more fun and tactical as well.
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostThu May 03, 2018 6:19 pm

Wulfyn wrote:All 'damage' counts as separate 1-damage hits, with a saving throw made individually against each point of damage on the weapon


This is already the case. See page. 47 second paragraph, you roll for each point of Hull damage.

Wulfyn wrote:The damage value should be scary high! Possible additional effects too.


Hard to judge the effects of your suggestion without that.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Wulfyn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostFri May 04, 2018 9:50 am

Lorn wrote:This is already the case. See page. 47 second paragraph, you roll for each point of Hull damage.


Several of the things in the list are already the case. Rather than have people guess what was and what was not I relisted the suggested pathway, whether it was already included or not. I'm surprised you didn't notice that in the other lines too.


Lorn wrote:Hard to judge the effects of your suggestion without that.


It shouldn't be because what I am proposing has the damage as the dependent value and not the lead value. The intention of the rule change is to create a suppression / disruption weapon that forces the opposition player to manoeuvre or take risks. That is the effect that is wanted. So the damage value needs to be of the right level to support that intention.

Having the wrong number doesn't invalidate the mechanic, it just demonstrates that the number is wrong. In which case we're just back to the same position of 'it needs to be the right number'. So the number will fall out from balance playtesting.
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostFri May 25, 2018 3:47 pm

Updated the Centurion and the Destroyer rules, as new Betas are out, some of the changes are quite similar to mine (or at least go in a similar direction).

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Brutoni

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostFri May 25, 2018 8:44 pm

PHR close action DD is a D3+3. That's an extra 2 shots which is quite nice. Average of 5 now which should give 1.66 criticals and 1.66 normal hits. Off the top of my head I think that should be enough to kill a dropship everytime it fires no?
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Lorn

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Re: Lorns Fan DFC Patch (german space magic in space)

PostSat May 26, 2018 8:24 am

Except the Medea on average yes.

Though I increased the reliability of atmospheric weapons from Destroyers but decreased it outside, which I think is a principle that TT-Combat could adapt. As it prevents ships like the Kiev from being all rounders which is always dangerous for balance and specialises them more.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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