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New Centurion Stats

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Gauntlet

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New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 3:16 am

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0965/ ... 1810911257

Interesting... the main turret damage now has the potential to do 4 damage, but only on Weapon's Free and could mess up (2+ ACC, via 4 Dice). Furthermore, the armor has taken a big downturn, once the ship has been crippled, it turns into a 4+.

And its been moved to a Heavy slot... and is 160 points.


So do people think the Centurion is still awesome, has it been nerfed too much?
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_ghost_

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 6:59 am

A Lil too much Nerf.

In my opinion. Obce cripplet it's quickly killed
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Lorn

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:31 am

Far too much at least the points are too high now.

Stats wise I prefer it now though I still dislike that you can take 4 at clash size (though it will not matter in practise now), as it effectively restricts this "rare" ship less then either the launch limit or the heavy slots do for other ships, also it is the only heavy choice I am aware of with a G of more then 1, that is a minor nitpick though.

Damage wise (Mass driver only) we look at the following averages first value without weapons free, second with:

5+ armour: 1,44 / 2,89
4+ armour: 1,33 / 2,66
3+ armour: 1,22 / 2,44
4+ passive: 0,83 / 1,67

So without the side weapons the fire power is rather underwhelming for a heavy cruiser. Unless you can bring both to bear your damage is lower then the Moscow damage. Which is rather appalling in particular coupled with the Broadside issues.

In the current state I would reduce it by at least 20P for those stats.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Brutoni

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 11:59 am

I'm still seeing the 125 point version of old when I click on that link? Am I doing something wrong?
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Nobody

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 12:13 pm

Brutoni wrote:I'm still seeing the 125 point version of old when I click on that link? Am I doing something wrong?


Probably have the old page cached still.
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Brutoni

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 12:19 pm

Nobody wrote:
Brutoni wrote:I'm still seeing the 125 point version of old when I click on that link? Am I doing something wrong?


Probably have the old page cached still.



:oops:
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Intruder313

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 12:48 pm

Pre-amble
Once we studied the the previous version I and my UCM opponend deemed it way too cheap. I actually considered that it was a grim reminder of when Games Workshop would bring out overtly OP or plainy too-cheap untis (Epic scale Space Marine Wind Rider Host was literally 50%+ of your models for free!) to sell new models, and then (sometimes) fix them later once they had reaped fat sales figures. That's how it always looked to me anyway.
Centurion 1.0 looked more like a rush-job than cynical marketing; so I'm glad they have addressed it so soon.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
My thoughts on the changes

Cost: everyone seemed to agree that previously this was 145-180 ship before. 160 seems about right, if anything it's still too low (or the PHR Achilles is overpriced at 165, see later).

Ceramic Armour: perfect - it's retained it's uniquely amazing 2+ armour, gained a Special Rule, and like many special rules this breaks on Cripple to stop it being completely OP. You can crack this turtle!

Tonnage: Surely there's a typo here as it's H for just UCM but remains M for PHR. It should maybe be H for both. Imagine now if a UCM and PHR Centurion are in low orbit over a Cluster - under this current setup the UCM one is worth double the Tonnage for essentially the same ship! Meanwhile, PHR could now field more of these via Lines compared to UCM being restricted to more limited Vanguards.
Finally, they both still have the same Hull 12 so I am absolutely convinced someone forgot to change the M to H on the 2nd (PHR) data table :)
Whatever Mass they ulimately assign it, it needs to be the same for both factions.

Mass Driver Turret: while I am pleased to see Fusillade in use, this is probably not the right place for it. The guns were hugely OP, but I'd have simply liked to see them reduced to 2 Attacks / 2 Damage with that orignal 3+ lock. These present as absolutely massive, thumping guns, not rapid fire, super-accurate lasers?!
I don't mind Bloom either way.

Something I hoped would changed but has not:
PD: surpised that the UCM model did not gain a point of PD as they generally have better PD than PHR. +1 UCM PD would also help balance this v PHR, which has a greater Scan.

As it stands this is a much more balanced and fair unit than Version 1 I would still field the ship as it is now, but I do think it needs minor tweaks and one typo correction.

______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Some PHR comparisons
I'll compare it to the most relevent PHR ships now and ask myself 'Would I ever take the Centurion over this?'

Hector (170 H): The Hector has more Hull and PD but lacks the Armour. It also has more Broadside Attacks and a max 6 damage BTL that does not require WF orders. BUT, the Hector BTL is F(N) while the Centurion can swing that more accurate Turret anywhere but the rear. I believe I'd take either.
Achilles (165 H): unless I know the enemy has H/S ships, the Achilles is very poor next to this Centurion: a single, erratic Torpedo does not compete with that Turret. The Achilles is a one-trick pony.

I'll probably look at UCM equivalents later :)
Last edited by Intruder313 on Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 3:09 pm

Pretty much just going to agree with most everyone here; it's moving in the right direction, but overshot the mark.
Ceramic armor is great and really puts to rest some of my concerns over 2+ armor.
Making it heavy really makes so much more sense, and keeping the 1-2 G is really nice for it's fluff of being a "cruiser".
Price point is just about right in my opinion.

The only problem I have with if is how impotent the main gun is now; not only is it's single target weapons free damage inferior to everything save the Hector/Achilles, but it doesn't even have the superior standard orders firepower it used to.

It recommend just making the main gun straight up 2+ lock, 2 attack, 2 damage, no fusilade. Not as powerful as it was before, but it still puts it's standard order firepower squarely between normal heavy gun cruisers and heavy beam cruisers, maintains its overall superior damage, all while still limiting it's maximum single target damage.
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wundergoat

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSat Mar 10, 2018 9:39 pm

160 is just way, way too much for what this brings to the table now, with the firepower and durability nerfs. 160 would have been pretty good at the old stat line, but now I can't see using a Cent over other options. No one element is bad per se, its just that everything taken together is too much.

Cannon change keeps the weapon unique but I was a big fan of the old gun from a game design perspective. It looked out of line and I'm sure I wasn't the only person to pick their jaw off the floor after seeing it, but performance wise it really wasn't unreasonable. IMO this is exactly how EAA tech should be. The price point was too low, however. The current design just isn't impressive from a firepower perspective on standard orders or WF.

The armor change is interesting and really drives home the idea that the old style ceramic plates were not worth it for the EAA's successor factions. Its a creative and flavorful nerf and given we already have tokens to represent armor degradation it isn't that difficult to track.

I hate the classification change to heavy since being a beefy medium was a great flavor point. After all, this is an EAA standard cruiser, even if it is a big as a modern heavy. Reducing group size to 1 should have been enough, as the Rare rule would have prevented spamming.

Overall, I'm disappointed in the new stats. With the game's current firepower vs durability paradigm, being able to take ships off the board is key. The best combat ships hit like sledgehammers, while durability is a secondary concern. After all, killing the opposition before they have a chance to kill you is the best defense. The old stat line was somewhere between cruiser and heavy cruiser in the firepower department and heavy cruiser+ in durability, which should have put it around heavy cruiser in cost. The new version is now heavy cruiser toughness, cruiser firepower, and wholly not worth 160pts.

On balance comparisons: people seem to want to balance the centurion to ships in faction that are not competitive. The osaka, rio, hector, achilles, and most of the PHR cruisers are already not particularly strong in-faction so making balance comparisons to those is already flawed. Those ships need buffs.
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Gauntlet

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Re: New Centurion Stats

PostSun Mar 11, 2018 3:01 am

I think the Fusillade rule is nicely used here... its a massive cannon, and getting the most out of it lights up the ship... it could have also been done by giving the cannon Bloom, but I like this better.

That being said, I suppose we could have made it EVEN MORE powerful and making it Fusillade 3. For 5 2+ shots of DMG 1.

I think it sits in an interesting spot right, albeit, too costly. I prefer it in the Heavy Slot, as this rarifies it a bit more, because, ironically, the Rare rule, isn't "rare" enough.
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