It is currently Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:48 pm


Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly fire

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Bistromatic

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 179
  • Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:30 am
  • Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 8:15 am

Liam, is there any chance this could be moved to the General forum? I think there would be value in porting the existing discussion over as opposed to starting from zero as the public pendulum thread showed.

I think arguing from fluff is the wrong approach here, as this is not part or the core concepts of the game nor any of the factions. It is trivial to justify friendly fire as a largely solved problem for the UCM without diminishing the background, not to mention telepathic brainslugs or hyperadvanced hedgehogs.

From a gameplay perspective i currently err towards a +1 lock value if friendlies are present in the target sector. This is simple and does not require any tracking as you just have to check for friendlies when the bombardment happens.

I do not like the idea of friendly fire, whether as risk from rolling badly or from spillover. If you take losses it should always be from your opponent. In the entire game i can't think of any instance where you can inflict any damage to your own forces and i don't think this should be an exception. If you screw up you'll leave openings for your opponent to exploit instead, which is in my opinion much more satisfying and interactive for both players than accidentally blowing up your own troops.

One thing i haven't seen considered is the destruction of a sector with friendlies. As i don't like the idea of inflicting damage to your own forces (and neither do 3/4 factions in the game) i propose the following: A sector can never be reduced to less hitpoints than the number of friendly units present as a result of bombardment. Any excess damage is ignored and does not cause collateral damage either.

This allows for a somewhat weakened form of using enemy units as cover and prevents you from accidentally wiping out your troops via sector destruction. From a background perspective this represents the fleet avoiding areas with allies, the more friendly troops are presents, the larger the exclusion zone. For the ignored damage, imagine the shots striking areas that are already devastated.

In conjunction with this i'll again argue for allowing troops to retreat from sectors with enemies present. It allows you to open give up sectors to open them up for bombardment, hopefully creating interesting choices. It also makes scoring a high initiative actually beneficial since it allows you to react to your opponent instead of allowing the player with the lower score to tie their opponent down without recourse. I believe this is the original intent behind that rule and it does work that way in the launch asset phase.
Offline
User avatar

Cry of the Wind

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 963
  • Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 pm
  • Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 3:26 pm

All other things aside I would like better rules clarifying how friendly fire works in regards to ships too.

Currently there is nothing either allowing or preventing me from picking my own ship as a target. Targets are never defined in game. As far as I can tell I am allowed to shoot my own ships as long as they are in scan+sig range. Same thing with Launch Assets, they can target friendly ships (fighters do so all the time which kindda confirms that friendly ships are valid targets) but the rules explain what happens when bombers hit enemies only.

Can I shoot at a Space Station that has friendly Ground Assets on it (guessing no per the bombardment rules but that's only because they are Sectors too)? How about one with no Ground Assets (neutral)?

Is the player with the ship exploding inflicting the damage or is it the player who caused the ship to explode?

I've had arguments about how to handle the Space Station one especially since a ship can explode next to one that has tokens from both sides on the Station. How are the hits split between the 2 forces?

Hell do you even take collateral damage on a Space Space since that is in bombardment not normal shooting?

Most of this sounds silly and obvious but I've had people argue over these points since they are not defined anywhere. To me its obvious that if I kill a ship and it explodes I'm the one causing the damage but that isn't what I experienced interacting with other people (especially when their troops are the ones about to be taking armour saves).
Offline
User avatar

Bistromatic

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 179
  • Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:30 am
  • Location: Hamburg, Germany

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 3:58 pm

To be honest, i think that's a topic for the rules forum. It's about a clarification not any proposed changes and i think it falls outside the scope of this specific thread.
Offline
User avatar

Cry of the Wind

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 963
  • Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 pm
  • Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostMon Apr 17, 2017 5:56 pm

True, but friendly fire all around should be looked at if we are looking at one aspect of it.

Do we want the ability to shoot our own ships? I think no but it should be clear.

Do we need the ability to shoot ground sectors with friendlies? While I like the idea I don't think it is needed either.
Offline
User avatar

CheeseCake1128

  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:44 am
  • Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 8:29 pm

Maybe reduce the number of shots? I don't know if that is fairly even across the factions though. I know that gameplay should be more important than the fluff, but similar to FAC in DZC, having friendlys in the AO should allow for superior targeting. My thought would be that bombardment is focussed to make sure friendlys aren't in danger, which in game terms would mean that with a tighter spread bombardment wouldn't be able to do as much overall damage. That would also help with preventing the destruction of sectors with friendlys in, and generally feels more like the fire support that a Kodiak provides, rather than all out desolation that bombardment ships would rain on sectors occupied solely by enemies. :)
- CheeseCake1128
Offline
User avatar

CheeseCake1128

  • Posts: 83
  • Joined: Mon Nov 14, 2016 7:44 am
  • Location: West Yorkshire

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 8:33 pm

Either that or something like the nuke rules with several constraints and extreme situations. From a fluff perspective I love the idea, but to be fair it probably isn't needed in the game. :)
- CheeseCake1128
Offline

Eddieddi

  • Posts: 66
  • Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:55 am

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 9:45 pm

pilgrim wrote:I would disagree. The Kodiak is a single attack weapon - we don't know what it is but we can be sure it isn't a sector flattening orbital bombardment attack which is exactly what we are talking about if DFC. There is already a disconnect in we don't have any interface weapon systems that are cross both DFC and DZC, as I said, the Kodiak clearly isn't directing the same weapon system that we see attacking in DFC, and the fighters attacking in DZC are not the fighters we see in DFC, so comparisons are not really valid. I would also add that is the ONLY system that can call the orbital fire - no other vehicle or command unit can do it, which suggests its damned specialised.



I beg to differ, rulebook page 90. there are a whole set of rules for interfacing between the two. now I don't know what the Kodiak is, nor its weapon stats. a dropfleet bombardment uses the following stats:
E: 13, SH:1 AC:6+* R(F/C): Infinite MF&Arc:N/A, With special rules, Area-L, Devastator-3, Demoisher-3, From Orbit, Before Firing, The bombarding player puts 3 large blast templates anywhere on the Dropzone commander table (pausing that game) and then rolls to hit each target, If it misses then you roll 2d6 inches worth of scatter in a random direction.
This shows that you CAN bombard sectors with your own troops in, just that its VERY difficult.

Therefore I suggest that we simply go "when firing at sectors with your own troops in, Bombardment only hits on a 6+" as is indicated in the weapons profile given in the rule book!
Offline

CaptainCrunch

  • Posts: 46
  • Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:15 am

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostTue Apr 18, 2017 10:38 pm

I have to agree with others that this is a futuristic game so it is plausible that races of the period would have extremely accurate weapons ... even when firing into atmosphere. I think the case could even be argued that orbital bombardment would be even more accurate for sectors with friendly troops since they could act as spotters for friendly fire.

How about these options for fire into mixed occupation sectors/space stations:

1. On a natural 1 to hit from orbital bombardment it hits a friendly unit.
Or
2. After rolling to hit the sector roll a dice for each hit, on a 1 it hits a friendly token (opponents choice).

Personally I like #1 but #2 has merit as well.
Offline
User avatar

Shadow Broker

  • Posts: 92
  • Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:04 pm
  • Location: Mettmann, Germany

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 7:28 am

The problem I see with bombarding your own sector with the current avaible bombardment weapons is, that those are NOT designed for pricise orbital strikes.
The UCM bombardment gun, the UF-8800 (UF?) has "8800" in its name for a reason.
Its the caliber of the gun, in mm.
That means it fires 8.8 meter shells.
You don't just level a building with one of these, you level an entire street with it!
So what the Codiak is calling is definitiv not one of those shells.
Offline

Eddieddi

  • Posts: 66
  • Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:55 am

Re: Change to Core Rules: Allow the possibility of friendly

PostWed Apr 19, 2017 10:54 am

Shadow Broker wrote:The problem I see with bombarding your own sector with the current avaible bombardment weapons is, that those are NOT designed for pricise orbital strikes.
The UCM bombardment gun, the UF-8800 (UF?) has "8800" in its name for a reason.
Its the caliber of the gun, in mm.
That means it fires 8.8 meter shells.
You don't just level a building with one of these, you level an entire street with it!
So what the Codiak is calling is definitiv not one of those shells.

Lets assume you're firing these 8.8m shells at hyper low velocity so they are sped up by velocity, You're going to have some burn up in the atmosphere, (not going to bother heat shielding a shell). But while I agree the kinetic energy delivered by such a shell could flatten an entire block/street, You can still draw a trajectory line and tell your troops to GTFO before firing. Hence why I said the simplest solution is "when firing on friendly troops, only hitting on six up" makes sense.

as for faction specific stoof, The scourge use plasma bombard guns, which basicly glass a area. Again, Getting troops out the area, but I doubt scourge care. PHR are supposedly very precise versions of UCM guns. And shaltari supposedly use uber-powerful lightning storms. Some how I doubt the shaltari (focused as they are on preserving their own lives) haven't made their infantry suits/armored vehicles resistant to their own bombardment weapons, lord knows I would if I had that level of tech.
PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest