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Faction Ratings

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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostThu May 04, 2017 3:32 pm

It was the issue that 6 Amy's pre nerf very easily and consistently from what I played and have seen took down battlecrui and battleships. Add on their shields which makes them tougher than a 3+ armor ship and the dang things were a giant paint to deal with.

I am not alone in that feeling and Hawk did not just nerf them becuase of people making the noise they did. This is after all as stated before an Experimental change. I do believe that the UK Games Expo is not using the experimental rules so we shall see
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Eddieddi

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostThu May 04, 2017 4:17 pm

Lyraeus wrote:

You at best get 6 attacks per game. The amount of dice does not matter. Even if you weapons free every single turn you get 6 Attacks.

Tell me, how long do your Amy's live? What about the Djinn's you see? Typically Amy's can live an entire game getting 4 attacks while the Djinn I see don't. I was generous on showing a games worth of shots for the Djinn.

I don't see that as a black swan argument. I really just see it as a "expectations are not always what you get". Call it what you will but I am not saying this with only incidental experience.

I am looking at all of this from my time in the Beta to the numerous games I have played. I made the whole faction ratings based of well over 100 games under my belt. It is not just me playing a few games and rating them.


6 attacks per game, from 4 ships, rolling on average 3 dice, 6x4x3, 72 dice. That is enough dice to achieve a standardized average for those dice. You're once again conflating the idea of "what you see" vs what you are saying. You are saying that 'from MY experience x means y" very good. now let me show you something irrefutable and watch you refute it with that exact statement because black swan.

How long do my Amy's live? Depends, normally turn 3 or 4 if my foe knows what they are doing. how long to the Djinn live? About the same. What you should be asking is what is the value I get from them.

And once again we go back to the "I have more games than you therefore I hold more precedence over you" argument. while I can see the stance you are taking, the rock you are standing on is one you have formed from incidental data and non evidenced information. I could play 10,000 games and collate the data and provide it to you, but it would STILL contradict what you have seen. I'm just skipping the 'play 10,000 games' segment and generating the data as I will.
As for who's played more games, suffice to say it's gotten to the point in our group we're drawing up new game modes, playing campaign days and such on a weekly basis. so make of that what you will.

Anyway, as I can see that you rely on incidental data and not empirical hard evidence there will be no changing your mind. I bid you adieu.
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Kemble

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostFri May 05, 2017 12:55 am

Lyraeus wrote:It was the issue that 6 Amy's pre nerf very easily and consistently from what I played and have seen took down battlecrui and battleships. Add on their shields which makes them tougher than a 3+ armor ship and the dang things were a giant paint to deal with.


I couldnt help myself. I cant let you get away with random outlier damage results influencing things.


Here is 6 Amys, pre and post nerf.
Image

So you say 6 Amys kill battleships very easily and consistently? How about the scourge dragon/deamon they are the easiest to kill.

Chance of 6 Pre Nerf Amys doing 18 damage and killing a dragon? 0.51%
You just want to pray for 2 damage from the cripple? ok, 3.4% chance to do 16 damage.

Ok lets ease up and have 6 Amys try to gun down an Avalon.
Chance of 6 Pre Nerf doing 14 damage to kill the avalon? 13.98%
How about those 2 points of damage from cripple, so 12 damage? 36.94%
6 Post nerf Amy doing 12 damage? 6.54%.


Clearly our definition of 'easily and consistently' are very different. I usually like a bit of ease or consistency before I make such a statement.



And at the same time here, you are talking about an SR6 group. Is that not the easiest thing in the world to deal with? Any list with SR4, Djinn, Amy, Taipai, SR5 Corvettes are going to rip apart the 6 Amys due to out activating them and everything else.
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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostFri May 05, 2017 5:27 pm

Kemble wrote:
Lyraeus wrote:It was the issue that 6 Amy's pre nerf very easily and consistently from what I played and have seen took down battlecrui and battleships. Add on their shields which makes them tougher than a 3+ armor ship and the dang things were a giant paint to deal with.


I couldnt help myself. I cant let you get away with random outlier damage results influencing things.


Here is 6 Amys, pre and post nerf.
Image

So you say 6 Amys kill battleships very easily and consistently? How about the scourge dragon/deamon they are the easiest to kill.

Chance of 6 Pre Nerf Amys doing 18 damage and killing a dragon? 0.51%
You just want to pray for 2 damage from the cripple? ok, 3.4% chance to do 16 damage.

Ok lets ease up and have 6 Amys try to gun down an Avalon.
Chance of 6 Pre Nerf doing 14 damage to kill the avalon? 13.98%
How about those 2 points of damage from cripple, so 12 damage? 36.94%
6 Post nerf Amy doing 12 damage? 6.54%.


Clearly our definition of 'easily and consistently' are very different. I usually like a bit of ease or consistency before I make such a statement.



And at the same time here, you are talking about an SR6 group. Is that not the easiest thing in the world to deal with? Any list with SR4, Djinn, Amy, Taipai, SR5 Corvettes are going to rip apart the 6 Amys due to out activating them and everything else.
what ever you wish to say. I have seen dozens of games where it happened. You call them outliers, I call them definite possibilities. What ever you think is fine but I am using my experience and about 10 other people
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Lorn

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostSat May 06, 2017 10:08 am

Lyraeus wrote:what ever you wish to say. I have seen dozens of games where it happened. You call them outliers, I call them definite possibilities. What ever you think is fine but I am using my experience and about 10 other people


Once I fired 7 E10 shots at a building (A6), they did no damage should I conclude that E10 is ineffective at firing at buildings or is that not simply a rare case you cannot plan with an anomaly not the norm?
I could tell you more odd stories where the unlikely happened but I think you draw the wrong conclusion from that.

While the average approach may fall apart in these "odd" cases they are the minority and unless we are talking about areas there a minimal amount of failure is still intolerable (like when human life would be at stake) this is a big issue. However the same is not true for my plan a miniature war game. If I rely that the result will be around the average outcome I will sometimes be disappointed but I will be more often right then wrong.
If you rely on your personal experiences you do the opposite. It is like we play a game where you have to guess which d6 result will come up and you pick 6 because that is the last result it rolled. Yes you can win that and you even have a 1/6 chance to but the odds are still stacked against your expected result. While expecting that no 6 is rolled has a 5/6 probability I like the 5/6 probability and taking it would not be invalidated even if a 6 is rolled as we access the odds before the roll not after it happened.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017
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