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Faction Ratings

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
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Weidekuh

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:27 pm

A test that showed 4 Djinn > 6 Amys.

*duck and flee*

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

You may continue your duel.
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dread2005

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:29 pm

Weidekuh wrote:A test that showed 4 Djinn > 6 Amys.

*duck and flee*

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

You may continue your duel.


Duel hehehe :mrgreen: maybe you all need a break and reload your arguments! :ugeek:
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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:47 pm

Weidekuh wrote:A test that showed 4 Djinn > 6 Amys.

*duck and flee*

Sorry, couldn't resist. :P

You may continue your duel.


Yup, the dice rolled bad for the Amethysts. Though those Djinn rolled how for the dice they rolled. I mean Yeesh! 60% crits on an average number of attacks... Ouch.
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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 6:56 pm

Lorn wrote:
Lyraeus wrote:These all look very off average which proves my point. Averages are useless to go through in a single game. Maybe over a tournament you might net close to averages.


You failed to grasp the point behind using those averages. They are not a tool to predict single dice rolls nor a small number of those. They are for a large number of rolls and offer a decent comparison between systems in one number.

I did not fail to grasp anything. Averages mean very little game from game and only matter when you piece together 10 games or more.

So unless you plan to log your Djinn attacks for 10 games then come back to us your averages are pointless. They are a guideline at best of what we will expect overall.

If you want a better guideline on hits to damage use the percentage system. Far more reliable
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Lorn

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 10:12 pm

Lyraeus wrote:So unless you plan to log your Djinn attacks for 10 games then come back to us your averages are pointless.


For calculating the averages what you actually roll does not matter, the calculated average is not deduced from 10, 100, 1.000 or 100.000.000 games. It is a calculation beforehand with know regards to your actual dice rolls. I fear that part of the concept did not appear to have been "grasped" by you.

Lyraeus wrote:They are a guideline at best of what we will expect overall.


That is actually quite close, it is a guideline for our expectations of the unit, while you see such a thing as dismissive as you appear to puzzles me. It is supposed to give an indication, an indication backed up by maths but far from an attempt to predict the actual results.

Lyraeus wrote:If you want a better guideline on hits to damage use the percentage system. Far more reliable


While the percentages will tell you a more detailed picture I question if that really will help judging things. Also unless you attempt to do all calculations beforehand, carry a large table of them to your games or are secretly a maths savant I doubt you could base your decisions in a tabletop on the calculation of those percentages. The averages may tell a broader picture or (to stay in the metaphor) have a lower resolution in that some details get lost but it is the same picture.
How a string of X = YZ% is more reliable then the average is beyond me. It might be more accurate but both are equally unreliable if you want to predict a dice roll.

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CaptainCrunch

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 10:53 pm

This topic has derailed.


PHR are the best at everything!

I also agree with Lyreas that Amethysts are better than Djinn for pretty much all the reasons he gave. The 12 scan is a hug benefit that seems to be undervalued by other parties.
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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 11:39 pm

Lorn wrote:
Lyraeus wrote:So unless you plan to log your Djinn attacks for 10 games then come back to us your averages are pointless.


For calculating the averages what you actually roll does not matter, the calculated average is not deduced from 10, 100, 1.000 or 100.000.000 games. It is a calculation beforehand with know regards to your actual dice rolls. I fear that part of the concept did not appear to have been "grasped" by you.

Lyraeus wrote:They are a guideline at best of what we will expect overall.


That is actually quite close, it is a guideline for our expectations of the unit, while you see such a thing as dismissive as you appear to puzzles me. It is supposed to give an indication, an indication backed up by maths but far from an attempt to predict the actual results.

Lyraeus wrote:If you want a better guideline on hits to damage use the percentage system. Far more reliable


While the percentages will tell you a more detailed picture I question if that really will help judging things. Also unless you attempt to do all calculations beforehand, carry a large table of them to your games or are secretly a maths savant I doubt you could base your decisions in a tabletop on the calculation of those percentages. The averages may tell a broader picture or (to stay in the metaphor) have a lower resolution in that some details get lost but it is the same picture.
How a string of X = YZ% is more reliable then the average is beyond me. It might be more accurate but both are equally unreliable if you want to predict a dice roll.

I am good at memorizing numbers and tables so to me it's not an issues.

The averages are nice but they only give you a dotted outline at best. It helps but it really is only part of the equation. To base everything on the math or as people like to say "on paper" is not good. It can turn out that what looks good on paper is actually bad and vice versa. In this situation it is less so but still a possibility
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostWed May 03, 2017 11:53 pm

Im not a math person so if you could show me what one of these charts or tables shows for an Amethyst vs a Djinn I'd be curious to see the difference in the percent numbers vs averages.

In any event I'm pretty sure the Djinns will be a better combat unit for damage dealing. The parts you should be stressing about the Amethyst being better are the huge scan range and full manoeuvrability. You're never going to convince me that Djinn are worse at shooting. You can convince me that the Amethyst is a much better ship because of lower sig with higher scan and 360 degree firing allow it to be used in far more situations and with a much greater chance at surviving. I'd had Amethyst run amok on my back lines, never been the case with Djinns. That 1" small sig and 6" longer reach in a game with premeasuring is huge. You can easily place an Amethyst unit in a position where it is likely that most members if not all can survive to make a second strike while forcing the enemy to waste spike generation on a single frigate at a time. This is why they are good ships, not their damage output for one strike in a vacuum.
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Lyraeus

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostThu May 04, 2017 12:23 am

Cry of the Wind wrote:Im not a math person so if you could show me what one of these charts or tables shows for an Amethyst vs a Djinn I'd be curious to see the difference in the percent numbers vs averages.

In any event I'm pretty sure the Djinns will be a better combat unit for damage dealing. The parts you should be stressing about the Amethyst being better are the huge scan range and full manoeuvrability. You're never going to convince me that Djinn are worse at shooting. You can convince me that the Amethyst is a much better ship because of lower sig with higher scan and 360 degree firing allow it to be used in far more situations and with a much greater chance at surviving. I'd had Amethyst run amok on my back lines, never been the case with Djinns. That 1" small sig and 6" longer reach in a game with premeasuring is huge. You can easily place an Amethyst unit in a position where it is likely that most members if not all can survive to make a second strike while forcing the enemy to waste spike generation on a single frigate at a time. This is why they are good ships, not their damage output for one strike in a vacuum.
You hit all the notes there.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Faction Ratings

PostThu May 04, 2017 5:11 am

I like pie.



Sheesh. Calm down, guys. All I was trying to point out is that Amy's have been used to go after Strike Carriers, not Troopships, as you said in an earlier post, Kemble. I never said that they had to be nerfed because of what they could do, I was merely trying to correct a misconception about which class of ship they were typically doing it to on Turn 2.

That's it.

Also, there was no grand conspiracy to nerf the Amethyst, or target Shaltari as a whole. Hawk made the changes that they did based on their own observations, at several events, not on any collective lobbying by "Shaltari Haters". It is an interesting phenomenon that if any negative changes are made to a Shaltari unit it is perceived by some to be the result of a mob of complainers wielding virtual pitchforks and torches out to rid their village of "The Monster". This is not the case, especially with the Amy.

Also, these are Experimental Rules, subject to change, and optional to use. None of them have been set as "official" yet. This is just part of the process that Hawk goes thru to continuously improve their games. Feedback from the community is important, but it is never the sole reason that a change is made.

And name-calling is totally out of line, Lyraeus... :|

Now, back to the OP...

The PHR Echo is too good. But this thread is not the place to discuss it -- I'm going to open a new topic for that...
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