It is currently Thu Nov 23, 2017 12:01 am


The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline
User avatar

Lordprinceps

  • Posts: 276
  • Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:25 pm
  • Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 6:47 am

J.D. Welch wrote:
I like this idea as well.

It allows them the exact same firepower against light targets they have now, while also reducing their firepower against cruiser-level targets which has felt problematic to some.
From a Rules (& Function) perspective, this makes a lot of sense to me.

From a model perspective, I don't think it matters all that much. To me, that's much less of a consideration than getting the balance of the ship-in-the-game correct...


I really do have to disagree; if one possibly fix would go against the model, fluff, or overall feel of a faction, but would result in good balance, and another fix would have no such issues, but result in not-quite-as-good (but still good) balance, the latter ought always be chosen.

It's one thing to pursue balance between ships and factions, it's another to pursue near-perfect balance down to the thousandth's at the cost of other, less gamey aspects of the game itself.

It'd be like saying that the Osaka should get 5 attacks on its 6400 battery to bring it up to par; it would make the Osaka useful, and potentially balanced with, say, the Theseus and the Yokai, but we can all agree that's not a proper way to go about fixing a ship.
(This is just an example; giving the Osaka 5 attacks isn't a good idea even from a pure number's standpoint)

Likewise changing the physical loadouts of already designed ships is not the way to go either; all proposed fixes and balances should be within the constraints imposed by the physical model among other things. There are plenty of ways to fiddle with and tweak ships that don't rely on breaking the uniformity of the models or cause fluff-holes and the like.

At the same time, it's okay for sub-sections of a faction to be unbalanced in regards to other factions; there's no major issue with the PHR having better corvettes (to a reasonable degree), so long as their overall balance is on par with the other factions.
Offline
User avatar

J.D. Welch

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 5215
  • Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 am
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ, USA

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:19 am

I just don't see how it's going so strongly against how the Echo is modeled to make its front gun Calibre(Light), but, whatever... It might be called a "Medium Calibre Turret" on the Echo, but it doesn't look like a Medium Calibre Turret, like on the cruisers that sport one, so change the name of the weapon and its profile. It's really the fairest way to nerf it to where it really ought to be. A slight points decrease might be called for, in this case, but I'm not completely sure about that...

As for your last point, pit three Echoes as they're currently configured against three Santiagos in Low Orbit, which is what would happen in Mixed Engagement or any mission that involves a good number of space stations, and you'll see the imbalance -- the Echoes will positively rape the Santiagos. Yes, they cost more, so should do more, but therein lies the rub in terms of overall list construction, availability of slots, and roles being played on the table. Three Echoes vs four Santiago is a fairer comparison in terms on points (90 vs 88), and the Echoes still win due to having two more 4+ shots each, 2" better Scan range for their CAW attacks, and better armor -- result, four Santiagos get poned, and the UCM player had to burn a second Light slot for the privilege.

I'm sorry, my nanites are rebelling and giving me a headache, and my implants are malfunctioning, I guess I've offended the White Sphere with this heretical talk, but it needs to be discussed! :lol:
I love my job (well, I love having a job), but a bad day of gaming beats a good day of work every time!

http://www.theroadtovalhalla.blogspot.com
Offline
User avatar

dread2005

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 730
  • Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:23 am

i still say give all corvettes (of all factions) the "Cloud" rule from DZC

this way they are faster to kill in orbit, and it gets bloody at corvette vs corvette fights in atmo

other would be a points increase, but that gets strange... a corvette costs more than a frigate... hm well maybe at PHR its ok the 37 of Medea gives room

again the problem may be just temporary till lets say some new variants come out which get the mass ship counter role or corvette, light hunter role

like the Destroyer
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
Offline
User avatar

Lordprinceps

  • Posts: 276
  • Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:25 pm
  • Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:29 am

J.D. Welch wrote:I just don't see how it's going so strongly against how the Echo is modeled to make its front gun Calibre(Light), but, whatever... It might be called a "Medium Calibre Turret" on the Echo, but it doesn't look like a Medium Calibre Turret, like on the cruisers that sport one, so change the name of the weapon and its profile. It's really the fairest way to nerf it to where it really ought to be. A slight points decrease might be called for, in this case, but I'm not completely sure about that...

As for your last point, pit three Echoes as they're currently configured against three Santiagos in Low Orbit, which is what would happen in Mixed Engagement or any mission that involves a good number of space stations, and you'll see the imbalance -- the Echoes will positively rape the Santiagos. Yes, they cost more, so should do more, but therein lies the rub in terms of overall list construction, availability of slots, and roles being played on the table. Three Echoes vs four Santiago is a fairer comparison in terms on points (90 vs 88), and the Echoes still win due to having two more 4+ shots each, 2" better Scan range for their CAW attacks, and better armor -- result, four Santiagos get poned, and the UCM player had to burn a second Light slot for the privilege.

I'm sorry, my nanites are rebelling and giving me a headache, and my implants are malfunctioning, I guess I've offended the White Sphere with this heretical talk, but it needs to be discussed. :lol:



Does the medium calibre turret on the Orion look like it's broadsides? The barrels are the same, as they are on the Echo, and this pattern holds true across all weapons over all factions.
Regardless, the loadout of a given ship should be considered immutable for all practical balance discussion. It's always easier to modify stats than to replace an entire weapon.

I did not say that the Echoes are sufficiently balanced in their current state either, only that it is okay for them to be reasonably better. For instance, reducing the Echo gun to 1 attack and raising their cost to 31 or 32. They're still better compared to other corvettes, ship to ship, but the gap is lessened and the premium is increased.

Considering how the Echo is effectively a frigate anyways, I think this is fair :)
Offline
User avatar

J.D. Welch

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 5215
  • Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 am
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ, USA

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:44 am

I think if you drop the front gun to 1 shot you don't also need to hit them twice and raise their points, too. That's a double nerf to one issue, and I don't think that it's necessary... By dropping it to one shot you've made it less effective at shooting everything, including other corvettes, so it shouldn't then also cost more in points, too.

But that's what's nice about the option of making its turret Calibre(Light) - it remains equally effective vs Light tonnage ships (so no nerf in that regard, it's primary role), but less effective at seriously damaging higher tonnage ships, which feels appropriate for the role. In this case I could see a slight points increase, too.

But at only 2 Hull, it is definitely not "effectively a frigate"! Seriously? :roll:
I love my job (well, I love having a job), but a bad day of gaming beats a good day of work every time!

http://www.theroadtovalhalla.blogspot.com
Offline
User avatar

Lordprinceps

  • Posts: 276
  • Joined: Fri Apr 22, 2016 6:25 pm
  • Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:54 am

Fair point, I suppose the extra 8 points are covered by Stealth and the armor. Regardless drooping down to 1 attack on its gun (equivalent of a UCM frigate turret) works well; just as the cruiser turrets have 3 barrels and 2 attacks, the corvette turret has 2 barrels and 1 attack.

And again, as elegant or effective a proposed load out change may be ( and changing them to light calibre is effecyive, I will not dent that), the model reflects medium calibre weaponry. This is fact. I maintain that all proposed tweaking remain constrained by its concrete loadout.

As for it being "effectively a frigate", it kind of is! It's got 4+ armor and dies at 2 damage (like statistically 66% of frigates will) and has some form of marginal void weapon, and that's ignoring the model size. The echo is effectively a "light frigate", far more than any corvette could be considered as such :D

Also, remember, the primary goal of corvettes is to kill atmospheric assets, not light assets in general, although they are fairly effective at doing the latter if the need arises.
Offline

Tychonaut

  • Posts: 29
  • Joined: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:25 pm

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 12:28 pm

Making the guns Callibre (Light) seems like the most elegant way to fix them, as it takes Crits off the table for larger targets, which seems like enough of a nerf to me.

--

@ Dread2005: The Theseus has in it's description an ability like that, but seems to have been removed during the design process. Maybe they should consider giving it back? Right now it has 0 reason to ever go weapons free, so allowing it to split it's weapons fire on Weapons Free orders would be a nice touch, and get it back onto terms with it's fluff?

PHR would then have a Light Cruiser/Destroyer ;) (seeing as all PHR ships do 2 things)
Offline

Kemble

  • Posts: 67
  • Joined: Thu Feb 23, 2017 3:06 am

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 12:48 pm

J.D. Welch wrote:It should be a threat to Strike Carriers and other corvettes, not so much to cruisers... A squad can seriously hurt a cruiser, like a Troopship


I think this is rather unavoidable. Particularly with the Medea, the number of corvettes each faction has to field to be able to handle more than 1 Medea a round. By virtue of this the corvettes are going to be able to threaten cruisers. I can only assume that its all this cruiser threatening that has people concerned.
Given the drawbacks corvettes have (no active scan and no contribution to critical locations) I'm not sure any of them 'need' a change.

Although I do wonder a bit as to those looking at all of the corvettes as too versatile, as to how many corvettes they are fielding and facing (at a given points level), to be wanting to call for all of the limitations or nerfs to be put on corvettes.
Offline
User avatar

dread2005

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 730
  • Joined: Mon Feb 17, 2014 3:54 pm

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 2:34 pm

well i never played against lots of Corvettes (never more than 6)

and i myself never used more than 4 UCM and 3 PHR Echos till now... normaly i take more frigates and have cruiser sized lots of Light Calibre Broadsides ( much better to clean the ATMO in my eyes )

so i am not sure how good i would perform against a 10+ corvette list, but i don't fear it right now...
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
Offline

Brutoni

  • Posts: 77
  • Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:17 pm

Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 7:17 pm

J.D. Welch wrote:And the rest of the fleet is better now -- use Course Change, who cares if you take a spike, you're PHR! ;)



Sorry. I assume your comment about who cares if you take a spike you are PHR relates to endurance. Except most of the ships who got a minor buff in the experimental rules are not that resilient.

Shaltari are arguably the most resilient followed by Scourge stealth and then, IMHO, the sheer points efficiency of UCM 3+ save cruisers. That minor spike from course change will quickly add up to a major spike and allow opponents to strike 1st and strike hard.


Just my opinion.
PreviousNext

Return to General Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 3 guests