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The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

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Cry of the Wind

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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostThu May 11, 2017 9:28 pm

Brutoni wrote:
J.D. Welch wrote:And the rest of the fleet is better now -- use Course Change, who cares if you take a spike, you're PHR! ;)



Sorry. I assume your comment about who cares if you take a spike you are PHR relates to endurance. Except most of the ships who got a minor buff in the experimental rules are not that resilient.

Shaltari are arguably the most resilient followed by Scourge stealth and then, IMHO, the sheer points efficiency of UCM 3+ save cruisers. That minor spike from course change will quickly add up to a major spike and allow opponents to strike 1st and strike hard.


Just my opinion.


The turn you are Course Changing you are striking. Its too late for the other fleet to stike first by the time you have that spike. The whole idea of that manouver is to fly strait at the enemy and then turn 90 degrees or whatever is needed and let loose with everything. Many times this will allow you to get the multiple broadsides off which previously required a Weapons Free order and so was impossible to do.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostFri May 12, 2017 2:57 am

Cry of the Wind wrote:
Brutoni wrote:
J.D. Welch wrote:And the rest of the fleet is better now -- use Course Change, who cares if you take a spike, you're PHR! ;)



Sorry. I assume your comment about who cares if you take a spike you are PHR relates to endurance. Except most of the ships who got a minor buff in the experimental rules are not that resilient.

Shaltari are arguably the most resilient followed by Scourge stealth and then, IMHO, the sheer points efficiency of UCM 3+ save cruisers. That minor spike from course change will quickly add up to a major spike and allow opponents to strike 1st and strike hard.


Just my opinion.


The turn you are Course Changing you are striking. Its too late for the other fleet to stike first by the time you have that spike. The whole idea of that manouver is to fly strait at the enemy and then turn 90 degrees or whatever is needed and let loose with everything. Many times this will allow you to get the multiple broadsides off which previously required a Weapons Free order and so was impossible to do.

^This.

The likely scenario, and What Major Awesome did in our 1,500 point tournament 2 weeks ago, is to Max Thrust Turn 1 (or the first Turn that ship is on the table; Minor Spike), then Course Change Turn 2 (now a Major Spike, but who cares? You're up so far into the table now it's not that much of an issue for your opponents to see you anyways, it's probably Turn 3, possibly even Turn 4 by the time you pull this off, so the distance has been closed by both parties, and who cares about spikes at this point, really? It's why Limas aren't as ideal as people initially think they are -- by Turn 4, they've really got nothing better to do than to move towards a Critical Location and hope they can score on it for at least one turn before they get creamed by whatever's made it into your backfield.)

Also, just for edification purposes, you don't necessarily turn 90 degrees at the end of the CC maneuver-- you want to turn just enough at the end of the turn, plus whatever you had to do previously en route to get to your "pivot point", to get at least one juicy target into at least one side arc, with an eye to where you think you're likely going to need to head to in the next turn to do whatever it is that that particular ship needs to do. It's like playing billiards -- the smart players consider where the cue ball is going to end up after they take this shot, so they can set themselves up for the next shot, with an eye towards the shot after that, as well. ;)

People worry too much about spikes. They mostly only matter early game, when you're trying to get an alpha strike in on something, or late game when the field has been thinned out and whatever offensive assets you have left might need to reach out and zap an enemy asset from further away than they can manage to close to in the remaining turns...

And "...you're PHR!" is a mindset, not necessarily a stat. :D
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Brutoni

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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostFri May 12, 2017 9:27 am

My point was that the argument you can just do this tactic and trade fire effective because PHR are tough is simply not true.

In terms of the echo a heavy nerf is not needed and while I can see the argument for a light nerf I am again not sure that is needed. If people wanted to then the calibre light may be the best solution... not sure why people think it is justified though. Maybe we should nerf PHR troopships cause they are better than other factions troopships as well.
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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostFri May 12, 2017 11:05 am

Brutoni wrote:My point was that the argument you can just do this tactic and trade fire effective because PHR are tough is simply not true.

With the Calypso it is true. It makes UCM Burnthru lists cry (I honestly have no idea how people are finding success with burnthru spam when there are calypso or shields in at least 30% of their games) and even the much vaunted diamond is made to look like a chump with calypso around.


Brutoni wrote:Maybe we should nerf PHR troopships cause they are better than other factions troopships as well.

:twisted: Well now that you mention it.
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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostSun May 14, 2017 12:00 pm

J.D. Welch wrote:And Gonefishing, I know how much you like the Echo, but within 8" it's just too powerful, not one by itself, but because you can bring three in a squad for just 90 points. It should be a threat to Strike Carriers and other corvettes, not so much to cruisers... A squad can seriously hurt a cruiser, like a Troopship, and then submerge into Atmo and be very difficult to kill in return. And you can't popcorn the squad by simply killing one -- its like the Voidgate was when it was 3 Hull, too powerful and difficult to eliminate the entire threat that the squad represents...

And the rest of the fleet is better now -- use Course Change, who cares if you take a spike, you're PHR! ;)


I'm sorry JD - I just don't see it and can't agree. 3 Echoes at 90 Points can pump out 6 Forward Fire lock 4 shots (2 hits and a Crit average) at targets on the same orbital layer as them. This does not seem excessive for 90 points and the gun is pretty pointless in Atmosphere. Within 8" those 3 Echoes also get to fire their CAW weaponry - 9 additional shots (also lock 4) which have to get through your opponents PD and saves (which can be augmented with fighters).

But is the CAW weaponry a problem? The squads of Nickars (4 for 88 points) can potentially fire 24 lock 4 CAW shots from scan range, Santiagos (4 for 88 points) get 12 Lock 4 CAW shots and the Glass (5 for 90pts) gets 25 lock 5 CAW shots. The Echo (3 for 90) gets the least amount of CAW. Now granted combined with it's gun, outside of Atmosphere it is a more effective orbital fighter than its compatriots, the trade off for this however is that in Atmosphere its significantly outgunned by its compatriots. Even outside of Atmosphere against larger orbital targets, it can be outgunned by its compatriots, but the gun does make it slightly more reliable on the forward arc. Then there's the 2" sweet spot you have to maintain to do this risk free, if your Echo squad gets too close to its targets (essentially within 6") on the same layer and scores a kill then you are only a couple of dice rolls (Explosion range and a 4+ on the catastrophic table for a large target) from taking additional damage. a 5+ will wipe you out with no saves allowed.

I think its also a bad comparison to say its as survivable as the voidgates, Voidgates only break atmosphere if they have to - otherwise they just hang there doing there thing, this is one of the characteristics that makes them so survivable. The Echo by comparison is the worst corvette in Atmosphere in terms of combat/pts efficiency (it will take 90 points worth of Echoes to kill a voidgate in Atmosphere) and will frequently be out of Atmosphere where it can be targeted and shot down. Yes, you cant popcorn the squad, but it only takes 2 DP to remove one and every one removed is a signifiicant reduction in the squads threat level - thats bad for the Echo squads, because unlike voidgates their entire role is fighting. The Echo's strength is its versatility - its good on all layers (thats how Hawk have designed it, its supposed to be able to threaten cruisers and work outside of Atmosphere and thats why its more expensive than the other Corvetes), and has the ability to forward fire and focus fire, that makes it a very tempting choice in a PHR fleet which lacks versatility, forward fire options, and ways of effectively delivering its fire - but it remains merely Good, not overpowered, and its points cost precludes true massive over spamming when placed against other needed elements of your list. I do love the Echo (I think its the best ship in the PHR fleet), but I don't think its a problem, yes it is effective against troop ships and strike carriers (in a way that few other PHR truly ships are), but in my experience its more vulnerable against the "fighting ships", so in some ways it could be seen as the PHR's anti Troopship spam list that places a greater emphasis on the space combat game (even if it cant claim critical locations) and force a bit of change in the current drop GA heavy meta.

IMO, its not overpowered and it does not need a nerf. If it does get changed then that should be part of a fleetwide PHR review , and any change to its profile should be tempered with a significant reduction in points (I don't agree the rest of the PHR fleet are better now, the Callypso is better so that helps the rest of the fleet approximate something of their original design intent (while they are still alive), but I would not be surprised if that gets retrograded again having been made a little too good now.)
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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostSun May 14, 2017 2:34 pm

I agree. I don't think the Echo is a problem. At doing what corvettes are supposed to do, it is joint lowest in terms of AA firepower, is the most expensive and the slowest.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostMon May 15, 2017 4:07 am

OK. Good feedback. Thanks, guys. :)
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Re: The PHR Echo -- The new "Problem Child"?

PostWed May 31, 2017 3:36 pm

As I touched upon corvettes within my post in the experimental rules thread (viewtopic.php?f=36&t=9779&start=70). I still think there is some balancing to do in Dropfleet and I wonder whether Hawk are quite there with corvettes in general?

I think the Echo and Glass are both very good, but I wonder whether this is more as a result of the “rock-paper-scissors” nature of them and the fact that the can jump out of atmosphere ambush a ship and then next turn dive back into atmosphere- where they are relatively safe from anything apart from other corvettes (“rock-paper-scissors”). Beyond the well-publicised Glass spam, I know Gonefishing had some great success doing this with 9 echoes in a recent match against Shaltari; but I also know he feels he is partly (he loves the speedy ambush theme too) being pushed in this direction because the rest of the PHR fleet is, as he might say, a bit “Meh”.

Anyway, I do want Dropfleet to be a success and my play group to give it another go…so I am pleased to be heading along to this weekend’s UK Expo and will defo be dropping in (lame pun intended!) to see how the Dropfleet tourney is going and what players make of the experimental rules in the heat of battle!
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