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If Shaltali will remain unique?

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
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Rocy7

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If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 10:47 am

A few reflections from FB group

E.J.
there was 1 hawk official tournament that happened before the very first errata, and 2 that happened after, neither of which a shaltari won, Ever other tournament I have seen since have not had shaltari within the top 3.
I play PHR, I'm just worried with the way that this is going Hawk is just going to go through every race nerfing all the uniqueness out of them till all the races are effectively the same. or more accurately, don't feel like they need specalist tactics to deal with. Ok, Lets look at it this way, What unique rules to shaltari have? Vectored, Impel, Particle, Beam, Which ones of those see use? Particle, but only in the super-high tonnage ships, and even then, That's debateable (Most people take
Jet). Beam, because nearly all their CAW specialists are beam. Shields are universal. so, eh. And, well, relocation and rapid deployment are now pretty much off the table.
Now, lets look at PHR, What specalist rules to they have? Linked, Used every game, Calibur rules, Used every game, Burnthrough, almost every game,
See what I mean? The PHR feel unique and require specific tactics because of their unique weapon classes and fire arcs. While Shaltari just feel kinda Meh. Another way to describe it is this: A friend of mine plays UCM, I gave him my Shaltari fleet. and he said and I quote 'beyond the funky voidgates, it just feels like a ucm fleet that swaps burnthrough for armour ignore.' I then gave him the PHR fleet to play with (he was picking his 'second' race) and he said that it felt, and again I quote
"Like they had a style all their own and a unique personality." THAT is what I mean.
Not to mention that now if Shaltari want to be competitive in the ground game, there is going to have to be either WAY more void gate spam. or some kind of heavy cheese used as far as I can see.
Diamond is not 'best battleship' Its pretty tight between the diamond and the two PHR battleships (Personally I'd take the Minos). IMHO, I don't care about the glass, I never really used the glass spam tactic, its just cheesy and shite. I'm talking about the fact that 90% of the nerfs are aimed at shaltari while every other faction is getting buffed, I know it seems stupid, but Hawk seem to take each action in to consideration on its own. its getting to the point where I'm seeing my phr win
80% of the time and my Shaltari win rate drop from 60% to 40% and those are uphill. While I consider myself a 'proficient' commander, The repeated nerfing of any combat capacity is getting frustrating. "No special things were harmed." Right, one of the only really seen particle ships was nerfed, so yeah...harmed. as for the Particle buff, yeah, that's been said, to death, but we're yet to see it, no one said anything about the PHR needing a buff for their broadsides, but they got it. Now what
about vectored? or Impell? are we ever going to see those made viable? are we ever going to see Shaltari light cruisers buffed so that we can feild them without feeling like its a waste?
As for ground game, Lets say by some god-send, I have a troop drop of 16 from 5 emeralds and 1 BB. To drop that I need a absolute minimum of 6 voidgates, NOT including chaining ones. Lets say now I have some how manage get 3 voidgates over the main cluster (god knows how, with their 2hp and everyone and their mother packing corvettes) That means I can drop 9 tokens a turn, that leaves me with 7 tokens to somehow get elsewhere, If I want to redeploy those I need 7+ voidgates other places. I'm
looking at 13 voidgates minimum, Now lets add, a very, very optimistic for 3 for losses, that puts me at 16 voidgates. that puts me at 6 light groups that I need to spend on voidgates, and its more than likely that I'm going to lose more than 3, Voidgates need to not be 'nerfed' but rebalanced. I can understand the 2hp. I can understand the reduction of redeployment (not to the degree it was, That's pretty much the same as taking the ability away all together), They need to be made in to
something way more usable and made so that the best treatment of them is simply spamming.
I think that what should be done is that all the buffs should be done first, Buff particle, fix torpedo, sort out the jade/topaz ect. THEN once everything feels as it 'should' (IE functionally viable) then begin nerfing for balance, that way you have a absolute baseline 'feel' for each ship.
I have played with the new redeploy rules, Honestly, I would have prefered if they'd removed it and given void gates the capacity to drop 1 extra unit a turn, Because all it feels like i'm doing now is taking more and more voidgates to maintain a stable and controled rout for my troops.

J.S. Hawk have ruined the game for some to keep the vocal minority on forums and social media happy. The the nerfs are to 1 faction, others get buffs. If the factions were real Hawk would be in court for racism.

Note I'm the last of 5 Shaltari players in my area all others sell they minis claiming that this faction is boring and problaby Hawk will be still nerfing them to the stage making them unplayable.
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dread2005

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 10:57 am

hm i dont play shaltari, and i am still thinking that most of the balancing issues are gone if you change the Victory Conditions!

like the new Tournament scoring, clusters reduce values when destroyed a sector! perfect take a fleet of Tourqies Cruiser and Bomb everything to dust!

another aspect, well the Factions play different, now maybe just do some more games with the new rules and find your way to win

PHR was the same, people felt the faction (broadsides) are wrong or to weak, i think they didnt know how to play them! ;-P
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

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Rocy7

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 11:02 am

dread2005 wrote:hm i dont play shaltari, and i am still thinking that most of the balancing issues are gone if you change the Victory Conditions!

like the new Tournament scoring, clusters reduce values when destroyed a sector! perfect take a fleet of Tourqies Cruiser and Bomb everything to dust!


The new tournamnent rules are good I can agree. Did you see my no ground Shaltari list?
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shuul

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 11:31 am

No, Shaltari are just balanced now.
You still have fast voidgates that have shields and enormous PD.
You still have defence batteries in sector on turn 2, that no other faction can have.
You still can create a reserve of troops in the backfield.
You still can drop twice the amount than your opponent if coordinated correctly.

Only that was fixed is the absurd that was present, like dropping 16! tanks on turn 5 with one vodigate that max-thrusted through the table.

THOUGH id like to see the limit for teleportation of 2 tokens per gate, not 1 - that is a bit excessive.

Shaltari were not present last tournaments because people wanted have fun. Also, the lists of few Shaltari that actually were there were bot competitive (like 6 voidgates for 1250 pts - its a nonsense)
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Rocy7

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 12:04 pm

shuul wrote:No, Shaltari are just balanced now.
You still have fast voidgates that have shields and enormous PD.
Also, the lists of few Shaltari that actually were there were bot competitive (like 6 voidgates for 1250 pts - its a nonsense)
Voids are fast killed by any corvettes, especially the Echo. Shields for Void do not work as most corvettes have close action weapons on which pd is more needed.
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Major Awesome

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 3:05 pm

Balance... Hah, we aren't even playing a complete game yet. We just barely started playing with corvettes. We haven't used the cards. There will be a whole new set of problems and issues once we're playing the whole game. Who knows if these changes will be relevant once the metas begin actually playing the whole thing. THEN balancing can really happen. Who knows what state Shaltari will be in by then with all the drama queens leading angry mobs. Maybe they'll be UCM Lite.
~Major Awesome~
Hedgehog schemer, Resistance lover, and on those random full moons when PHR aren't everywhere my true nature as cyborg comes out.
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 5:12 pm

I'd love to see your friends UCM list if he thinks they play like Shaltari...

Major Awesome has a great point. We don't have a full game yet. Many players are just starting to use corvettes and many don't have access to battlecruisers or command cards yet. We also don't have destroyers or dreadnoughts and all the other ships that will be coming out in the next couple years to help keep the balance.

My personal experience with Shaltari is that many players don't know how to play with them. That is both commanding and fighting against a Shaltari fleet. I see people complain that the Shaltari drop game is weak but they only brought 1 Emerald or just the bare minimum number of Voidgates to equal their 1 turn drop capacity. My UCM drop game is weak too if I only took 3 New Orleans or 1 San Fran. I don't complain that I need to bring 2 Madrid/San Fran and 7 to 10 New Orleans at a minimum to be competitive which is something many people seem to forget.

When someone gets the fleet and how to use its strengths (sniping from beyond retaliation range for one, speed for two) they become much more deadly to the point the game was broken with the Max Thrusting crap. Pre-measuring is your friend as a Shaltari player as well. You can always be out of range of my UCM if you want to for example. No matter how many spikes I give your ships, you can spike me back and still sit 0.5" outside my range and shoot first. Once spikes don't matter anymore go Shields Up, I see people debate this with themselves for a long time. Sure you sig is bigger but all the ships that were going to kill you are in range already, so what I get one extra 2 shot Lock 4+ gun at you, if that is all it would take your dead anyway. There is much more to it than that of course but I'm seeing rookie mistakes being made with the fleet and then people complain that Shaltari suck. The nerfs are not being aimed at brand new players, they are being aimed at players who understand the fleet and what it is really capable of.
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samspace

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 5:26 pm

Major Awesome wrote:Balance... Hah, we aren't even playing a complete game yet. We just barely started playing with corvettes. We haven't used the cards. There will be a whole new set of problems and issues once we're playing the whole game. Who knows if these changes will be relevant once the metas begin actually playing the whole thing. THEN balancing can really happen. Who knows what state Shaltari will be in by then with all the drama queens leading angry mobs. Maybe they'll be UCM Lite.



Agreed. The game is ever changing and so will meta and tactics. I've played games a long time and one of the most consistent parts of wargaming is people arguing over nerfs and buffs. People argue about meta A and B until tactic C comes out and then you never hear about A and B again. Time, data, and patience will tell us what is truly OP or weak. In the mean time I like the challenge of playing the underdog.

As for Shaltari specifically, having played them in both systems, my opinion is that they are the all or nothing faction. Either your strategy and tactics work perfectly and you win overwhelmingly or you fumble and are blown out of the water. Difficult to obtain a moderate win with Shaltari. That's why when they are blowing people away we hear the OP chants otherwise they tend to get those medium level placing in tournaments, never the top but consistently high. For that reason I think they are the hardest faction to play.

Also their special rules can be very frustrating, so when they win big because of a few good shield rolls or gate shenanigans the instinct is to declare it broken. They are a dividing faction. Either you hate playing against them for their shenanigans or you hate playing them for their challenges. I've felt both of these feelings.
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Stompzilla

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 5:50 pm

I won a local Hawk tourney with 58 Tps out of 60 using Shaltari and literally haven't lost a game since I started using them. I've actually been self censoring with regards to teleporting for about 2 months now because games were too easy to win and weren't a lot of fun. Since I've restricted myself to no teleporting games have felt fairer and a couple have been super close nail biters.

This rule is actually a bit of a buff on how I've been doing it. I'm pleased with this recent nerf.
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Kelbesq

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Re: If Shaltali will remain unique?

PostThu May 18, 2017 6:28 pm

Even if you completely ignore the voidgates and motherships, Shaltari absolutely have their own flavor in the shooting game. This is what really drew me to them, and there are plenty of times where I wish I could just have normal Strike Carriers and Troopships. Maybe it's too strong without inherent problems associated with their drop troops.

But honestly, I feel like the inherent weakness of the Voidgate/Mothership chains strengthens the strategic aspects of the game. Taking down a single strike carrier may seem like boring trade for a corvette group. But taking down a critical voidgate to break a chain with a sacrificial corvette group has a bigger impact on the game and provides counter play. Same for taking down a mothership. Maybe the balance isn't there yet, perhaps the Hawk hasn't released the tools needed, or maybe the meta hasn't evolved to deal with it. Either way, I feel these things add flavor and depth. I just hope it all evolves in a health way.
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