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That Old "Group" Chestnut

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dread2005

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 1:00 pm

Cry of the Wind wrote:CAW is only relevant here for rules intent purposes showing that Groups do fire together.

The biggest thing is the first sentence and from there it tells you how Groups shoot. Groups fire weapons not ships.


maybe my english is not good enough 8-)

Pg 45
Once a group has moved all of its ships may fire weapons systems if their orders permit them to do so.

quote rb page 60
6) Resolve Launch Asset effects
Once all the Groups containing Launch Assets have
deployed their assets, you must then resolve their effects.


this at launch assetes tells what you want for shooting with a single group right?

you read it like this:
Pg 45
Once a group has moved all of its ships may fire alle weapons systems before resolving any saves if their orders permit them to do so.

i read it like this:
pg 45
Once a group has moved all of its ships in the group may fire the ships weapons systems if their orders permit them to do so.
if a ship of the group goes silent running, than it cant join shooting... and, and.

the resolving of shooting is:

1. by shooting ship
2. by group which contains shooting ships, (only allocating)
3. by shooting weapon
4. by shooting weapon

5. (big change) by target ship which got shoot and needs to save
6. target ship
7. target ship and any ship in range of AOE

so you tell me to do step 1-4 till all the ships of one group are don after this ill change to step 5 -7

i say you do step 1 -7 for every targeted ship!
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Trevelyan

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 1:06 pm

You allocate the dice before you roll any of them. Even if one or more ships are subsequently destroyed, their dice are still out there on the table allocated to a target and available to be rolled. This really doesn't need to go into the FAQ.
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dread2005

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 1:20 pm

Trevelyan wrote:You allocate the dice before you roll any of them. Even if one or more ships are subsequently destroyed, their dice are still out there on the table allocated to a target and available to be rolled. This really doesn't need to go into the FAQ.


that is only to prevent allocating after you see success or not and to speed up Gameplay... as written, not more!

i can just tell which weapon will shoot which target, dice is from beta... now you cant split weapon dice anymore so its weapon profile anyway!

and i can remove the dice after the ship is destroyed anyway, as long as i color them all by ship/weapon....

and for the CAW grouping... that is just important for how often you can use PD

right now its just grouping up because Dave told us, not because of any sentence in the Book! :mrgreen:
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 1:35 pm

Pg 60 that you are referring to is worded that way because again everything a group does takes place at the same time in the game normally. They have to specify in this case since there are more than one group involved in launch assets which is different from the rest of the rules.

I don't need to add the "before any saves" because I simply follow the 7 steps in order to fire a groups weapons. The rules tell me groups shoot not ships and then goes on the explain how they shoot. It does not say ships may fire it says once a group has moved it may fire all its ships weapons. Nothing ever tells me to do it ship by ship and when you do it breaks the 7 step system.

How can I allocate if I haven't checked range/arc? If step 1 and 2 are done for the group why do we switch to ships suddenly for steps 3 and 4 with no rule telling us to? Steps 5-7 effect the ship taking damage now and don't involve the active groups ships, it is simply resolving the effects of their actions.

The way I am reading it you don't have to jump around the steps or add in any lines. The rules work fine and like launch assets and ground assets make things happen at the same time. That they also make the CAW pooling work as intended with no extra rules or description needed as it is a by product of the way the rules work and the fact the rest of the rules follow that format unless specified (ie your launch asset example where it tells you to wait for all groups to act before resolving). Even the bombers need the extra rule for grouping because it breaks the normal group rolling procedure by using more than one group at a single time, if you did it by group bombers would not pool against PD unless launched by the same group.

Basically if you read the first sentence and from the on assume it means what it says when it says ships in the group fire their weapons systems and then lays out a single procedure for doing so with no indication of repeating it or going back then it works. That the rest of the phases work that way also supports this view. It is also the simplest way to play since it doesn't jump around, just do what it says in order and everything just works.
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dread2005

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 1:49 pm

i see your way, but well i dont read it and you do go steps forward and backwords

step 1 doing it for ship A

step 2 tells me to do (step 1 again) for ship B and C because they are in group 1 (first loop)

step 3 tells me about weapon a1 (if similar target you can resolve all weapons of this target)

step 4 tells about weapon a1 (if similar target you can resolve all weapons of this target)

step 5 tells about target X

step 6 tells about target X

step 7 tells about target X and AOE (after this jump back to step 3 or 5 depending on the situation, some more loops)
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 2:01 pm

And thats the key we arent reading that the same.

I dont understand the point of the 7 steps if you dont follow them in order or jump back and forth and do so without any rule saying to do that. When you give me steps I follow them and when they work in the context of the system they are in I dont question it. You tell me to fire a groups weapons and list the steps to do so I will follow it and not add my own spin and procedure to it.

If the FAQ says otherwise I wont complain a bit. They game works your way too but needs much more errata if that is how it works. All my errata needs is one line confirming the steps are a group action.
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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostWed Jan 04, 2017 6:14 pm

dread2005 wrote:quote rulebook page 45

2. Allocate attack dice
Ships may only fire one weapon system at one target, they
may not split their dice over multiple targets. When rolling
for several weapon systems with different characteristics
at once it can be helpful to use different coloured dice


All of a Group's Attack Dice must
be allocated between the available targets before any rolls
to hit are made. This helps to speed up game play and
prevents the firing player from excessively optimising their
shooting in an unrealistic fashion.


...

there is not a single word about "group".... it is referring to weapon or ship....


I can see the word "group" in the rules text you quoted. It's not exactly wearing a red and white striped turtle-neck top and hiding in a crowd.

dread2005 wrote:
Trevelyan wrote:You allocate the dice before you roll any of them. Even if one or more ships are subsequently destroyed, their dice are still out there on the table allocated to a target and available to be rolled. This really doesn't need to go into the FAQ.


that is only to prevent allocating after you see success or not and to speed up Gameplay... as written, not more!


Not true. The passage says that allocating dice before rolling speeds up gameplay and prevents optimal allocation, but it doesn't say that those are the only reasons to do it.

Consider: "I always drive my car when visiting family. It makes me look cool because it is a convertible, and the heated seats keep my bum warm in winter." While all of this may be true (it isn't - my car is not a convertible), it doesn't follow that I only drive my car because it makes me look cool and keeps my bum warm. Those are just incidental benefits alongside the practical advantages of not going out of my way and paying over the odds to use public transport. I would still drive the car if it had neither a soft top nor heated seats.

Moreover, the rule you quoted is quite clear on the order - you allocate all dice before any rolls are made. Which leads us to this:

i can just tell which weapon will shoot which target, dice is from beta... now you cant split weapon dice anymore so its weapon profile anyway!

and i can remove the dice after the ship is destroyed anyway, as long as i color them all by ship/weapon....

In practice you usually don't even need to colour code the dice since ships in a group will usually all have identical numbers of dice for identical weapons.

But given that we've established that the rules quite explicitly tell you to allocate all dice from the group before making any rolls, can you point to the line in the book which tells you to go back and remove dice from ships which are destroyed by a catastrophic damage result before you've rolled them?

No? I thought not.
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Tauwolf

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostThu Jan 05, 2017 6:47 am

I don't mean to sound like a jerk here, but damn dread, you very rarely get the rules right on these forums... It's like you're insisting on playing the game the way you want it to be played, as opposed to playing the game the rest of us are playing.

At some point you're going to have to accept the rulebook, or at least stop posting your rules interpretations on these forums. A lot of energy has been wasted arguing with you, on several topics.

:ugeek:
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dread2005

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostThu Jan 05, 2017 7:46 am

hm rarely ? what do you mean, 75% of the great FAQ topic is ok for me and i dont have questions there

sure the rule on page 40 is the one and only thing i am not happy with and i told everyone

the rule question in this topic, note i am not the OP, is not unclear to me i just easy see how you can read it else

thats all

so my opinion is all ships of the group can shoot, even if they get destroyed....

but well i dont read it

i always try to be impartial and show numbers and text of my impressions and opinions

for me this discussions are fun and healthy i lern the correct rules much faster this way

if you dont like my style well dont read it, to the wasted energy well i dont force anyone to argue with me

but i see myself, that it went to far at one point and i told this already several times, but you know if one keeps the ball rolling others will join ;)
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

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Cry of the Wind

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Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostThu Jan 05, 2017 10:33 am

I dont doubt that 95% of us here simply want to know the rules better and clear up any grey areas. I never take it personally when someone disagrees with me or provides evidence that I made a mistake.

I also wont let something slide if I think your example is flawed :lol: and expect the same in return. Even after we agreed we probably wont see eye to eye on this one some more good points came up. I had this pegged for FAQ long before this thread and will still debate it any and other question there so I can refine how the FAQ questions are worded to ensure when (hopefully not if) Hawk gets around to reading it all they can make answers that make us all happy.
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