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That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 10:49 pm
by MillhouseJV
I have a BG with 4 Taipei and a Berlin.

I activate the Group with the Taipeis - I want them to fire at 4 different targets.
The rules state that all ships in a Group activate at the same time.

1st Taipei shoots and kills the final hull points on an enemy cruiser.
This cruiser then goes nuclear with a blast radius that will kill all the other Taipei frigates...

Question - Given that the group of Taipei activate at the same time - Do they still get their shots if the first one I rolled just happened to cause their collateral destruction...?

Can I get a page reference too? I have been trying to locate something to help out with this.

cheers in advance.

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Tue Jan 03, 2017 11:18 pm
by BlackLegion
As you said: Everything at the same time. Why should it be different?

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 3:08 am
by Cry of the Wind
Pg 45. You roll all hits and total all damage before you roll saving throws and determine damage results. All the other Taipei would have rolled their dice before the ship exploded.

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:55 am
by dread2005
Well no thats not written, you allocate the dice... than you can roll one weaopn system or all systems against one target...

But total up all Damag is against maybe one target, but against tow or more targets? I dont read that again this is not in the rule book...

I think the intention is that all taipei can shoot even if tbey blow up, but i easy can read it different at page 46-48

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 7:42 am
by Skinwalker
Its simultaneous, there's no other way of reading it. The dice have already been allocated, so the death of the ships dont matter....they are in effect being rolled at the same time, you obviously just cant physically do that.

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 8:33 am
by dread2005
Skinwalker wrote:Its simultaneous, there's no other way of reading it. The dice have already been allocated, so the death of the ships dont matter....they are in effect being rolled at the same time, you obviously just cant physically do that.


well maybe but as they OP says in his scenario there are 4 different targets. if one blows up and kills all taipeis because of a chain reaction...

well than youll need to show me where is written that you roll your next target?

or du you really roll all damage against all 4 targets? and after this start over again at Target 1 to do PD and saves???

well if, its not written that you don't continue to save all damage at target one before you go to target two, if pls show me where!

it would need lots of dice to always track all the open Damage which is not resolved till the last step...

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 10:40 am
by Cry of the Wind
dread2005 wrote:
Skinwalker wrote:Its simultaneous, there's no other way of reading it. The dice have already been allocated, so the death of the ships dont matter....they are in effect being rolled at the same time, you obviously just cant physically do that.


well maybe but as they OP says in his scenario there are 4 different targets. if one blows up and kills all taipeis because of a chain reaction...

well than youll need to show me where is written that you roll your next target?

or du you really roll all damage against all 4 targets? and after this start over again at Target 1 to do PD and saves???

well if, its not written that you don't continue to save all damage at target one before you go to target two, if pls show me where!

it would need lots of dice to always track all the open Damage which is not resolved till the last step...


Pg 45

Once a group has moved all of its ships may fire weapons systems if their orders permit them to do so.

Firing Procedure
1. Check detection range and arc (talking about ships weapons
2. Allocate all dice (which is clarified to mean the entire group)
3. Roll dice (which is talking about weapons rolling not ships)
4. Total up Hull damage inflicted
5. Roll saving throws and deduct Hull points
6. Roll for crippling
7. Roll for catastrophic

This tells me how to fire my groups weapons and the steps taken. At no point does it tell me to go back to step one after only completing one ships firing. They only way for the "pooling" of CAW dice to make sense is to play it this way as well and we know that to be true. Since we roll catastrophic damage last in step 7 all the ships in the group will have already allocated, rolled and done their damage. I have given you a page with basically direct quotes, until you can show me where it says I am supposed to fire ships individually and repeat the firing procedure multiple times for a single group (and explain how dice pooling works within the given rules) I don't know what else to say. Sure it might be a little pain to keep track of all these separate weapons and dice but that isn't any different than tracking a single ship going weapons free and firing four weapons at four targets.

We need an FAQ badly to clarify this but until then this is the only way I can read the rules to get CAW pooling to work and since everything else is done by group in the game it makes sense. Even movement is a group activity but it tells you ships can move individually (something it doesn't say in the firing procedure).

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:30 pm
by dread2005
well i dont care about CAW grouping!

the same can happen to 4x Toulons, shooting at target A and B!

if 2 Toulons shoot at A and are in explosion range, what happens after this if 3x toulons are destroyed in chain reaction of Target A?


quote rulebook page 45
1. Check Detection Range and Firing Arc
The range a ship can 'see' a target at is equal to the
target's Signature characteristic plus the firing ship's Scan
characteristic.


2. Allocate attack dice
Ships may only fire one weapon system at one target, they
may not split their dice over multiple targets. When rolling
for several weapon systems w ith different characteristics
at once it can be helpful to use different coloured dice


All of a Group's Attack Dice must
be allocated between the available targets before any rolls
to hit are made. This helps to speed up game play and
prevents the firing player from excessively optimising their
shooting in an unrealistic fashion.


3. Roll to hit
Each weapon system has characteristics that specify its
Lock number and Attack Dice in the ship description.


4. Total up Hull damage inflicted
Every Attack Dice that equals or exceeds its Lock
number inflicts the number of Damage points indicated
for the weapon system.


5. Roll Armour saving throws and deduct
Hull points
When a ship suffers Hull damage its Passive
countermeasures (if it has any) and Armour may be able to
prevent the damage being applied.


6. Roll for Crippling Damage
When a ship has lost a cumu lative total of more 50% or
more of its starti ng Hul l points it suffers what is call ed
'Crippling Damage' .


7. Roll for Catastrophic Damage
When a ship has no Hull points remaining it is destroyed
by Catastrophic Damage.


Radiation burst: The ship's drives detonate in
a lethal flash of hard radiation. Any other ships
wi thin explosion range suffer 2 Hull damage



there is not a single word about "group".... it is referring to weapon or ship....

but as you say we are circling here... :D

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 12:43 pm
by Cry of the Wind
CAW is only relevant here for rules intent purposes showing that Groups do fire together.

The biggest thing is the first sentence and from there it tells you how Groups shoot. Groups fire weapons not ships.

Not sure what most of your bold is saying. I use the same bold on 2 to 5 to support my point. You arent firing with ships, you are firing the Groups weapons which you determine the elegibility for in step 1 and step 2 is even plural supporting the idea. 6 and 7 refer to the target not the firing ship so dont matter.

The Toulon example changes nothing. We dont know target A is dead and exploding to kill the Toulons until after all weapons of the Group have fired.

But yea circles and dead horses now haha.

Re: That Old "Group" Chestnut

PostPosted: Wed Jan 04, 2017 1:00 pm
by TheHeritor
My understanding is that you assign ALL dice, roll ALL dice, make saves as applicable, and finally resolve all damage affects. As such, by the time any of your targets explodes you've already resolved ALL of your shooting. This, to me, follows the process outlined on pg.45 (as quoted above).