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Motherships and Orbital Layers

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Kemble

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Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostWed May 17, 2017 2:00 pm

Do Motherships have to be in low orbit to launch gates via a Voidgate?

Motherships follow the rules for Troopships:
p196 "they have a Launch capacity in the same way as troopships of other races and they use the same rules for when they may launch"

Troopship Rules:
p63 "bulklanders may only be launched by carriers that are in Low orbit or Atmosphere"

Generic Launch Rules:
p62 "if the carrier can't fire for any reason it cannot use Launch Assets either."
p62 "A ship that launches any Strike Craft and/or munitions gains a Minor Spike"


My starting position and how I have been playing my motherships:
A mothership follows the rules for troopships and troopships need to be in low orbit. I appreciate that its not actually launching a bulk lander, but I felt dirty baiting weapons free ships like the Basilisk into low orbit to line me up and then shifting to high orbit in front of them just to increase their lock value when troopships cant do this.

Hawk forum history:
http://hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... t&start=20
Lorn wrote:The Emerald works like a troopship so it has to be in low orbit.

J.D. Welch wrote: It's pretty clear that Motherships need to be in Low Orbit, just like a Troopship, in order to launch via a Voidgate...


http://hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... d&start=10
stormbringer wrote:Therefore, I see no reason for motherships having to be in low orbit to launch. The only mention of low orbit is on page 63 and refers to carriers deploying (which voidgate s do for shaltari, not motherships) bulk landers (which it appears shaltari do not have).


http://hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f= ... it+emerald
TheHeritor wrote: - Emerald's must be in Low Orbit to deploy troops.


I dont intend to pin these people to previous statements, these threads are from 6 months ago. I am more than happy if their opinions have changed for any reason.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1194688 ... ment_reply
So the contention in the facebook group is that because Shaltari motherships do not actually launch bulk landers the page 63 rules for bulk landers does not apply, and only the generic launch rules (not troopship rules) are applicable. There is also suggestion that this was confirmed by hawk somewhere but I am unable to locate anything.


Has the consensus changed and its ok for motherships to be in high orbit and launch?
Has hawk given guidence in an official capacity on this topic?
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Major Awesome

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostWed May 17, 2017 2:47 pm

This was in the big rules query thread for a while then got dropped I guess. I thought the consensus was that mothership orbital layer didn't matter. This was the message from Dave at LVO this year.

The mothership just has to be able to launch (I.e. not having done an order or in a state that prevents shooting). The Gate just needs to be in position to place tokens (and now must not have max thrust)
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostWed May 17, 2017 2:53 pm

They use the same rules for when they may launch assests. Nothing in the Launching Assest section states you must be in a particular layer to launch. So all in all there is nothing in the rules stating that you must be in a layer with the Mothership itself. The rules for Bulk Landers and Dropships cover what layers they may be used in (and Launch Assets in Orbital Combat). There is nothing stopping a San Fran from trying to launch Bulk Landers in High Orbit its the Bulk Landers that have the problem not the Troopship.
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Lorn

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostThu May 18, 2017 8:49 am

Slowly I understand the issue people have with Shaltari they simply dismiss all their possible disadvantages. In particular interesting as both Kemble and Cry of the Wind appear to place a big meaning on the wording. So in this case the analogy to a Troopship would mean nothing to you? And no Launch capacity is not the answer as that term is used beforehand. So if it would be just "able to launch" referencing Troopships would be rather misleading.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostThu May 18, 2017 9:05 am

ok lets say a Orbital Layer is a distance which needs to be measured!

ok now

A: When Launching ground assets and other strike craft, the ship gains a minor spike. When applied to the Shaltari, do Voidgates gain the spike, or is it the mother ship, or both? Q: Only the mothership gains a spike, the Voidgates do not gain spikes for this (as it's the mothership doing the launching - you just measure deployment from the Voidgates rather than the mothership). Further, Voidgates do not gain spikes for relocating troops.


the Voidgate needs to be in Atmosphere or for Space Stations in low orbit! because thats the point to measure the deployment of Launch Assets!

got me?

i dont see any issue... i dont see Motherships keeeping Low Orbit in any reason RAR = telportation !!! RAI well the Voidgate counts for Distance !!! Bomber for example as well dont care for layers (you dont lose X" Range or penalty for Targets in other orbits!)
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostThu May 18, 2017 4:23 pm

The part in the book about troopships makes no mention of orbital layers.

"As such they have a Launch capacity in the same way as of other races and use the same rules for when they may launch"

This is just telling you that they use the same rules for launching as everyone else, as in you can only launch as many as the listing tells you to and you must use the same rules for when you are allowed to. Nothing in the rules for launching limits you to Low Orbit or any other layer. If the layer mattered for the Mothership than it would need to be in Atmosphere anyway since Dropships can't operate in Low Orbit unless attacking a Space Station. If you agree that it doesn't need to be in Atmosphere to launch Dropships why does it need to be in Low Orbit then? If my San Fran got a command card that let it live in Atmosphere for a round what would prevent it from dropping Bulk Landers from there? If I have to be in Low Orbit to drop Bulk Landers there needs to be a rule telling me that since base launch rules do not limit you only the strike craft you are actually launching.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 5:44 am

I guess 6 months ago I felt that Emeralds needed to be in Low Orbit to launch.

Today: Don't know, don't care. Shenanigans.

;)
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Lorn

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 7:50 am

Cry of the Wind wrote:This is just telling you that they use the same rules for launching as everyone else, as in you can only launch as many as the listing tells you to and you must use the same rules for when you are allowed to.


Still does not explain the reference to troopships. The Emerald has launch, as such the restriction of being able to fire it to use the launch capacity already applies without any need for special ruling. However Gates are allowed to be launched from atmosphere and from low orbit (clarified as Shametari could otherwise not reach space stations) as such I fail to understand why the ship launching them is not required to be in a legal orbit to launch them.

I simply fail to see why usual restrictions should not apply just because it is a Shaltari rule.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 7:56 am

Lorn wrote:
Cry of the Wind wrote:This is just telling you that they use the same rules for launching as everyone else, as in you can only launch as many as the listing tells you to and you must use the same rules for when you are allowed to.


Still does not explain the reference to troopships. The Emerald has launch, as such the restriction of being able to fire it to use the launch capacity already applies without any need for special ruling. However Gates are allowed to be launched from atmosphere and from low orbit (clarified as Shametari could otherwise not reach space stations) as such I fail to understand why the ship launching them is not required to be in a legal orbit to launch them.

I simply fail to see why usual restrictions should not apply just because it is a Shaltari rule.


welll

Gates have a range of what 3" !!! so i say the travel between mothershipt and voidgates 18+18+18 is not the normal travel to a sector as destination!

this tells me that the mothership sends his Gates to the Voidgates, the Voidgate deploys the Gates to the Sector

again the Voidgate deploys the Gates to the Sector!
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 8:00 am

now that i read the rule.... i never did because i dont play shaltari... there it seems to be clear....


RB Page 196
...If Gates are being launched, refer to the rules below.

Voidgates:
Voidgates are a stepping stone between the Mothership
in orbit and the small, dropship-like Gates. Since Gates
cannot deploy directly from space, a Voidgate is needed to
enter the atmosphere and provide a point of entry for them.
When a Mothership is launching Gates, they are NOT
deployed
from the Mothership itself. Instead, they are
deployed from Voidgates.

this is without errata did something change here? if not what are you discussing?
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
PHR 2000 Points, UCM 3500 Points
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