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PoisonTail's Quest for the Shaltari

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PoisonTail

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PoisonTail's Quest for the Shaltari

PostFri Oct 07, 2016 8:38 am

Hi all,

I'll translate this to a Shaltari progress thread, and link forward in this thread as stuff may or may not appear. Starting with the "Gate numbers question" in the original first post (see below). Any BatReps and such might be linked from here as well, let's see where it goes!


BatReps
2017-01-29 Shaltari vs. UCM @ 700 points HERE
2017-02-21 Multiplayer Shaltari vs. UCM vs. Scourge @ 700 points HERE
2018-02-20 1388 points Shaltari vs Wade's UCM


Discussions
2016-10-07 How many gates for starter army? (Initial posting=i.e. You're looking at it!)


Look I paint stuff!
Pungari

*****


Hi all,


I (we) am (are) starting our Shaltari (DZC) adventure, and have a few games under our belt. So far we are all working with the starter and some small add ons:

Scourge (Starter + Heavy AT Tank)
UCM (Starter + Ravens and Falcons)
Shaltari (Starter + Coyote, 2 Spirits & Pungari)

I am mostly playing against the UCM player at roughly 775 points max. (We are quite flexible due to how limited we are with options to swap between units.)

This translates to a Shaltari list:

3 Edens
1 Spirit
1 Haven

#1: Level 3 Coyote
#2: 1 Braves
#3: 1 Pungari
#4: 3 Tomahawks
#5: 3 Kukri

Due to the small number of shots exchanged a lot is determined by the tanks. But I feel I am out-gunned in terms of AT & AA, and having 2 infantry squads against 3 makes objective games an uphill battle. Fighting against a lot of UCM fliers puts much pressure on Kukris as well. This could just be the nature of the game at these small points, and might change as we go upwards in points. A Jaguar seems like a good addition to do next, as it addresses both AA and AT.

I am now thinking if I could somehow cut an Eden and somehow squeeze in an infantry squad. But in how would you go about at these points, in general terms?

Thanks for all opinions, suggestions and advice.

Best,

PoisonTail
Last edited by PoisonTail on Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:08 am, edited 6 times in total.
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B1ollanT

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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostSun Oct 09, 2016 3:58 am

First, a couple questions. What scenarios are you playing, and how large is your map?
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Grey Mage

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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostSun Oct 09, 2016 5:17 am

The very first thing I would do is drop your commander down to a lvl 2 and get another haven in there.

After that, consider if dropping the commander completely, and proxying the Coyote as a Jaguar is right for you. In which case, dropping one of the Edens from the list would let you fit in the other brave squad.

In fact, that comes out to 766pts, about what you were looking at.

Now, if you wanted to mix it up a bit.....

Some Samurai and Ronnin would give you a solid flame unit and some extra AT firepower. 3 of each runs 120pts.... which would put you at 776 if you dropped one eden and gained the haven and the other braves unit.
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PoisonTail

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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostSun Oct 09, 2016 9:36 am

B1ollanT wrote:First, a couple questions. What scenarios are you playing, and how large is your map?


We play a scenario, very randomly picked from any of the three books on a 4' by 4' table.


Grey Mage wrote:The very first thing I would do is drop your commander down to a lvl 2 and get another haven in there.


Am I understanding you correctly - for 2 infantry, a brave and a pungari squad, you'd consider having even 3 infantry gates? Is that legal? Me and my UCM opponent discussed this, he suggested trying out 3 infantry with 2 gates. I didn't agree with him at all, it's nice to hear that I was thinking in ways that others agree with.

Grey Mage wrote: After that, consider if dropping the commander completely, and proxying the Coyote as a Jaguar is right for you. In which case, dropping one of the Edens from the list would let you fit in the other brave squad.


This has crossed my mind, as it seems to easy my limp. Unfortunately those command cards are just so much fun. :D

Grey Mage wrote: Some Samurai and Ronnin would give you a solid flame unit and some extra AT firepower. 3 of each runs 120pts.... which would put you at 776 if you dropped one eden and gained the haven and the other braves unit.


I'd love to try these out as the models are awesome. The Ronin I somehow understand how to use, but the Samurai absolutely I need get my head around first...


Thanks for the input! Its already helping me solidify my own ideas and plans.
Check out my hobby blog! https://poisontail.wordpress.com/
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Grey Mage

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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostSun Oct 09, 2016 5:16 pm

PoisonTail wrote:

Grey Mage wrote:The very first thing I would do is drop your commander down to a lvl 2 and get another haven in there.


Am I understanding you correctly - for 2 infantry, a brave and a pungari squad, you'd consider having even 3 infantry gates? Is that legal? Me and my UCM opponent discussed this, he suggested trying out 3 infantry with 2 gates. I didn't agree with him at all, it's nice to hear that I was thinking in ways that others agree with.

Good question, and the answer is: yes, its perfectly legal! See you total up the mass of everything in your army, including fine mass, and compare it to the gate value, including fine gates. So..... Spirit and 2 havens is 6, and then 3 edens is 9 for a total of 15 gate value.

3 for the coyote, 3 for the tomahawks, 3 for the kukris, 3 for two havens and then 4 for the two infantry squads. Thats 16 mass value.

See how that works?


PoisonTail wrote:
Grey Mage wrote: After that, consider if dropping the commander completely, and proxying the Coyote as a Jaguar is right for you. In which case, dropping one of the Edens from the list would let you fit in the other brave squad.


This has crossed my mind, as it seems to easy my limp. Unfortunately those command cards are just so much fun. :D

Grey Mage wrote: Some Samurai and Ronnin would give you a solid flame unit and some extra AT firepower. 3 of each runs 120pts.... which would put you at 776 if you dropped one eden and gained the haven and the other braves unit.


I'd love to try these out as the models are awesome. The Ronin I somehow understand how to use, but the Samurai absolutely I need get my head around first...


Thanks for the input! Its already helping me solidify my own ideas and plans.

Command cards are alot of fun, unfortunately because of an extreme amount of whining about gates the powers that be have decided to make everything in the shaltari army about 15% more expensive than it used to be. As such.... command value sometimes needs to be sacrificed for practical issues like AA, or AT firepower.

Samurai.... drop them off near a building you want to control. When the enemy move in, flame them. If they drop of Anti-tank assets or AA you dont like, cut them in half with your CC weapon. If its to hot fire and then run away via gate. Theyre very flexible in that you can move them through fine or standard gates, and 6 super suits can go through an eden at once, or 4 through the spirit as a fast reaction force.

Honestly though, if hes bringing falcons youll want the AA more than the AT in my opinion.
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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostSun Oct 09, 2016 8:40 pm

IMO, I don't think you need 3 Edens. You could drive the Tomahawks onto the board from some turn one building demo and drop one Eden for a Spirit light gate.

Also dropping the commander down too CV 2 isn't a bad idea also, might be able to squeeze in a Haven or another Tomahawk?
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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostMon Oct 10, 2016 6:13 pm

I would recommend you definitely reduce your commander value, and maybe play with only two Edens. I would also suggest trading in your Pungari for a squad of braves, as they have a much better chance at survivability. You might also think of trading your haven in for another spirit, since they are incredibly mobile.
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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostMon Oct 10, 2016 8:41 pm

On the other hand havens are very fast for ground transports and are easily hidden out of LOS of the enemy- which spirits have a much riskier time of.

Pungari also have the advantage of numbers- survivability comes in many forms!- and the horde rule.... two searchings goes a long way for 14pts.
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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostMon Oct 10, 2016 9:20 pm

Grey Mage wrote:On the other hand havens are very fast for ground transports and are easily hidden out of LOS of the enemy- which spirits have a much riskier time of.

Pungari also have the advantage of numbers- survivability comes in many forms!- and the horde rule.... two searchings goes a long way for 14pts.


That's true, but they are pitiful in CQB and flame weapons turn them into mince meat. I prefer braves because they are awesome in CQB and their weapons are more versatile.
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Re: Shaltari Newbie - What to add? A gate too many?

PostTue Oct 11, 2016 7:51 am

Thanks for all the replies!

Grey Mage wrote:Good question, and the answer is: yes, its perfectly legal! See you total up the mass of everything in your army, including fine mass, and compare it to the gate value, including fine gates. So..... Spirit and 2 havens is 6, and then 3 edens is 9 for a total of 15 gate value.

3 for the coyote, 3 for the tomahawks, 3 for the kukris, 3 for two havens and then 4 for the two infantry squads. Thats 16 mass value.

See how that works?



Ah, I get it now. I was thinking too much in a 'combine unit with transport' kind of way.


Grey Mage wrote: Samurai.... drop them off near a building you want to control. When the enemy move in, flame them. If they drop of Anti-tank assets or AA you don't like, cut them in half with your CC weapon. If its to hot fire and then run away via gate. They're very flexible in that you can move them through fine or standard gates, and 6 super suits can go through an eden at once, or 4 through the spirit as a fast reaction force.

Honestly though, if hes bringing falcons you'll want the AA more than the AT in my opinion.


Yeah, I feel that AA pressure more too. Thanks for the Samurai application too. I think a critical part that was missing in my planning for them was that one can transport them via normal gates too.

Mike Mee wrote:IMO, I don't think you need 3 Edens. You could drive the Tomahawks onto the board from some turn one building demo and drop one Eden for a Spirit light gate.

Also dropping the commander down too CV 2 isn't a bad idea also, might be able to squeeze in a Haven or another Tomahawk?


B1ollanT wrote:I would recommend you definitely reduce your commander value, and maybe play with only two Edens. I would also suggest trading in your Pungari for a squad of braves, as they have a much better chance at survivability. You might also think of trading your haven in for another spirit, since they are incredibly mobile.


Having run the numbers during this discussion, I think I'll begin by reducing one command level (although, the cards are fun, they don't do too much overall).

I also think I'll keep the Pungari, just for the sake of variation. Plus, I just got them painted (this thread now comes with a shameless referral to my blog).

That would make my list something like:

Coyote (lvl. 2)
2 Haven
1 Spirit
2 Eden

3 Tomahawks
3 Kukri

2 Braves
1 Pungari

If I need too cut points, The coyote turns into a Jaguar. That's a lot of more bang for the Shaltari currency (snails?).
Check out my hobby blog! https://poisontail.wordpress.com/
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