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Card Tactics

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Kozakh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostThu Aug 31, 2017 9:11 pm

It all depends on positioning. If there is a good obstacle field near the objective, it can just sit there and threaten anyone who comes nearby.

Again, maybe i'm being misunderstood here. I'm not advocating that you should always hide your BB's. What I'm saying is that NY provides an option to do this and still support your fleet - unlike other battleships.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 12:01 am

So there's debris near an objective, you're going to stick your BB behind it. Predictable, and therefore a potential liability vs. a regular opponent.
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Kozakh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 12:21 am

I honestly don't get what are we arguing about? :)
What's your point?
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 1:23 am

Didn't think we were arguing. Shikatanai can come across as a little abrasive though I doubt there's anything to it.
Rather we each have different styles of play within the same fleet so a lot of this is trying to get a feel for these different approaches, find out what works, what doesn't and why.
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Shikatanai

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 3:35 pm

Well everybody should play what he wants but in my experience Battleships (except the obvious one...) are just not viable when maxing out fleets. That's just a huge balance issue that should be adressed and that's why I jump in when people claim that BS are a good choice right now.

If you need to hide 1/5 of your Pts all game long or loose them instantly while not providing more than smaller ships it's just bad balancing.
If you hide your New York the majority of the game behind debrisfields you are paying 1/5 of your Pts for sending ~4.7 Bombers on 2xThrust which even can be avoided once again by course change or by flying through debris. Noone has to come close to you - why should anybody if he can just ignore 1/5 of your fleet or shoot it from afar as you will accumulate spikes. For the same Pts you get 2 Seattles with much more flexibility and no need to instantly hide.

The biggest issue of Battleships right now is that their huge Signature instantly enables shots with some scans. They just don't have enough Hull to take that. If you bring them in slow or hide them you have a lot of wasted pts. Solution would of course bringing them as early as possible... but that gimps your own dropping potential early on which is also quite crucial.
For all those downsides Battleships are just not bringing in enough Firepower to justify their Pts... not even talking about the problems other Battleships are having because of the need to go WF with SR15+

I played a lot of games up to now and tested a lot of stuff and Battleships were usually either destroyed pretty early or were no real threat. I never had any game were I had the impression that a Battleship brought more to the table other ships would not have done better / for less Pts.
Exception is of course the Diamond (it avoids exactly the main issue BS have because of its stats) and to a certain extend the Minos as Calypsos really help her to tank a lot more.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 4:46 pm

That's pretty much the case for virtually any naval game, (historical, sci-fi or fantasy) I have ever played.
Whether it's the Planet Killer, Bismark, Santisima Trinidad, HMS King George V, Yamato, San Martin, Freidrich der Grosse, Vittorio Veneto or HMS Victory it's more a showboat than a weapon.
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Nicius

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 7:25 pm

Well I think a point can be made for the Tokyo. It is almost as cheap as a battlecruiser, offers reasonable firepower and and extremely potent bombardment threat. Just don't expect it to survive the game.

In my last game it tanked the firepower of and entire PHR fleet for two full turns, while bombarding two critical sectors, crippling a troopship and killing of an Orion. This left my Seattles and Berlin's completly untouched, which became a serious issue for my opponent in the last couple of turns. I only lost due to bad positioning of my ground forces and just missing out a critical location.

Still, for now, I'm mainly switching back to battlecruisers as my flagships in 1250 points. I have a Perth coming in to join my Atlantis and Avalon. I think the shear threat of the Avalon, and the utility of an Atlantis are a greater assets to the fleet then a battleship at 1250 points.
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Kozakh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostFri Sep 01, 2017 11:28 pm

@Shikatanai:
I'm not sure I've seen anyone actually arguing that UCM battleships are a very good choice. Like I've said, they are mostly taken if you want to up your admiral level as well as protect him for most of the battle. We as UCM certainly don't have as useful BB's as PHR or Shaltari.

Now, I'm repeating myself for a third time - I'm not saying that NY HAS to hide behind debris all the time. It's an OPTION, one that other BB's lack. If my opponent commits enough forces to threaten the sector in which I've put my NY, I can hide it and still provide some degree of support to the rest of the fleet. I would be especially keen to do it if I get space-to-air bomber card early in the game. If threat on that sector is manageable - I'll put it forward like any normal BB (Tokyo or Beijing). No difference here.

Now, am I content with current state of UCM Battleships? No, I'm not. Compared to other races, we get almost nothing from our BBs that can't be done by other ships. There isn't much incentive to bring BB into battle by itself, unless you want a survivable platform for your admiral. Shaltari and PHR get super snipers, Scourge gets a "lane controller" ship, but UCM BBs are just an alternative for cruisers/heavy cruisers. This is especially true for Beijing, which is either severally undergunned or overcosted compared to Daemon. As for NY, if Hawk fixes torpedoes (for all races), this would help it a lot.
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Lorn

Hawk Talon

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Re: Card Tactics

PostSat Sep 02, 2017 7:16 am

@Kozakh

Mixed you up with Castro in regards to the Torpedoes. That one is on me.

It seemed you where thinking hiding a Battleship was a viable tactic.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Kozakh

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Re: Card Tactics

PostSat Sep 02, 2017 12:07 pm

It is, sometimes. Like any other ship.
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