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Leaving the Lima Crutch

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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostThu Jul 13, 2017 10:10 pm

Personally I'm going with a Pathfinder group of 3 Santiagos, 2 New Orleans and 2 Jakartas.
The whole lot can split up and go where they like so the role of table edge camping doesn't really hold any water.
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MonksOfMadness

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostFri Sep 15, 2017 11:07 pm

I haven't seen anyone say anything about the limitation on how many ships in a battle group can scan at a time, and how the Lima are exempt from that limitation.

The one unmentioned advantage I see to the Lima is that you can put them all in one group and they can scan with no impact to the rest of the fleet's order choices or ability to also scan if they want to.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSat Sep 16, 2017 8:33 am

That's because it's a moot point.
The desired effect can be achieved with far fewer (and cheaper) ships freeing up resources for use elsewhere rather than rendering an entire heavy cruiser`s value inert for the whole game.
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MonksOfMadness

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSat Sep 16, 2017 1:41 pm

Red Pendrigh wrote:That's because it's a moot point.
The desired effect can be achieved with far fewer (and cheaper) ships freeing up resources for use elsewhere rather than rendering an entire heavy cruiser`s value inert for the whole game.


37x2≠heavy cruiser, but ok.

I do agree that for the cost & relative impact, they're not an excellent deal across the board, and in keeping with the theme of this thread they should not be a general-purpose crutch. But, they shouldn't be seen as a write-off or as equivalent to other frigates without the detector special rule. I'm arguing for their situational usefulness in fleet tactics.

Remember, only one ship in a group can active scan ordinarily, and that requires all other ships in the battle group to be on standard orders. since all ships of the same type bundle into one group per battlegroup, that means you're getting at most 3 scans in a battle group (without Limas) but more likely fewer if you've bundled multiples of a type together, or the battlegroup isn't full.

So when are extra scans in the same activation useful? Specifically, two of them with an Avalon/St. Petersburg/Berlin/new Cairo or even a 3+ guns group (moscow/beijing) coming on after turn 1.

I'd argue they're even more helpful for the gun groups, as it permits them to come on weapons free, the one time in the game when they're far enough back that they're less likely to pay for it in return-fire.

It can make the difference between being able to hit an opponent's ships that they haven't elected to make easy targets for you--typically troop landers running silent or other BTL ships hanging back on standard orders--and it assures your target selection won't have an opportunity to shed spikes/run silent before you get your shooting in.

It's also a greater bet on breaking silent running on a pack of wyverns or strix to get two rolls in, which can be the difference between them getting to your fleet or not.

So I'd say yes, they shouldn't be brought in every list and they shouldn't be used for general purpose range boosting, as other frigates can do that. But, they do have a specialized role for making it possible to hit an enemy's battleship the same turn as flying on, and forcing the opponent to consider their special orders choices carefully because they need to shed spikes.
Last edited by MonksOfMadness on Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Red Pendrigh

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSat Sep 16, 2017 1:55 pm

In a clash (the now rather ubiquitous 1250) it could be (37x2)x2 depending on how many you felt were necessary.
I usually run New Orleans with my Berlin, one of which can scan. I also tend to run Jakartas with my Seattle which can also id targets for later activating battlegroups.
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Nicius

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSat Sep 16, 2017 7:06 pm

Well I for one, like having a Lima arround for those extra spikes. Granted, I've replaced most of my Lima's in my main combat groups by Jakarta's and New Orleans frigates, but the Lima has its place.
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSat Sep 16, 2017 9:37 pm

The Lima certainly has a place! I just caution it being an auto include as other hulls can do the same job more times than not with less cost and more flexibilty. Lima's shine in mixed BGs and with ships that need to Weapons Free. Outside of that you just have to ask yourself if you really need one and I find the answer to be no more often than yes.
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MonksOfMadness

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostSun Sep 17, 2017 5:25 pm

I just had a thought about something that would make the Lima a far more compelling choice--what if it was given partial cloak?

then the fact that it has no other purpose and is more expensive relative to the jakartas and New Orleans would be offset. it would likely need to get even more expensive and would also be reflective of the fact that it is a dedicated scanning ship and probably has better scanning gear compared to other frigates so it could probably scan while raising its own profile less... Effectively it's just a better listener.
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killionaire

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostMon Sep 18, 2017 11:00 pm

Lima is already a crazy good choice. It needs no buffs.
Seriously, many scenarios with special deployment such as column allow active scanners to utterly dominate range, particularly against PHR who are slower than UCM on their heavies by a precious amount. The Lima in the backfield can also claim orbit control of a secure cluster without risking itself. At no point in any game I've ever played has 1 or 2 Limas never earned their keep.

Other races pay a lot of opportunity cost to active scan with their frigates, including the fact that everyone else's frigates are more expensive for the most part.
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