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Leaving the Lima Crutch

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Bishop 5

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 12:14 pm

Having played a few games where the pair of Lima's seemed to make the difference might have led to some confirmation bias on my part, thinking they were now a must have.

In hindsight, turns 2 & 3 they were good but after that their usefulness fell way off and I didn't really care when they died.

I think the suggestion of taking other frigates to scan is a good one and one that I am seriously considering changing the makeup of certain battle-groups over.
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Brutoni

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 5:29 pm

I have very few games under my belt (downside of the military) however I have to say I agree with your premise. Often another New Orleans or a Jarkata provide additional value and still the option to active scan.
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dread2005

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 5:45 pm

I did not read all comments, but

Pro of the Lima:

- other groups of the BG can use another "special order"
- lima does not sufer spikes for doing this command
- no coherency problems

Well the first one is the most interesting to me, doing two Special Orders can change things
And if you play against scourge it could help break sielent runner

In my opinion other ships frigates can do the "active scan", but in exchange the BG which contains this alternate scan ship will sufer penalties


ill keep my limas ;-}
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Bishop 5

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 5:54 pm

- lima does not sufer spikes for doing this command


Is this right? I thought they got spikes same as normal?
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 6:56 pm

dread2005 is incorrect about the Lima not getting major spiked. Nothing in the rules for Lima's or Detector tell you to ignore the major spike from issuing the order.

Also dread2005 I think you missed the whole point of the discussion with your pros. The point is that most BGs are not going to be able to use anything other than a Standard Order anyway during the times that you will be using a Lima to Active Scan. Sure the Moscows will want to Weapons Free but by the time New Cairo needs to Course Change you either don't need the spike anymore or the New Cairo is already dead. There are no coherency problems using a New Orleans and even a Jakarta will only add 1 SR to the BG if it ends up 12" away from the main group which as pointed out will not matter in many issues anyway. Playing against Scourge doesn't change anything that my ships are doing, the scans have the same result if a Lima is doing them or a New Orleans and actually prove the idea that you don't need them since if you require more active scans to see a Scourge ship then the entire BG may be required to take the order to see anything.


They have a place for sure but you need to look at the BG as a whole and what it will be doing on the table more than just looking at pros that may not be utilized. I can pay 100pts for a cool ability that is totally worth it on paper but if I never need to use it or there is another option that is 50pts but is just as good 90% of the time than its wasted points which is what I'm getting at with this discussion. I'm not saying Lima are bad but rather make sure you actually are using them to their potential.
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dread2005

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 17, 2017 7:43 pm

My mistake, i was sure they did not get spikes...
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostFri May 19, 2017 5:51 pm

I feel i need the double spike going up against shalatri and scourge. Plus trying to have a bit more range and get the drop on something. I do also scan with other frigates if i need to
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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostMon May 22, 2017 9:56 am

I experimented with a List with no Lima's the other day with plenty of Burnthroughs, I took Jakartas instead as the PD really helped with 0 Launch Assets. One Jakarta would just not die from so many PHR Bombers. The Jakartas in the new Cairo groups helped for active scanning and same for the Avalon if it wasn't on weapons free.

UCM - 0 launch assets

SR11 Vanguard battlegroup (227pts)
1 x Avalon - 195pts - H
   + UCM Vice-Admiral (80pts, 4AV)
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (208pts)
2 x New Cairo - 176pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (222pts)
1 x San Francisco - 111pts - M
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (208pts)
2 x New Cairo - 176pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR4 Pathfinder battlegroup (128pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L

SR7 Pathfinder battlegroup (174pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
3 x Santiago - 66pts - L
2 x Santiago - 44pts - L

I did start to miss a Lima or two when my New Cairos wanted to course change, but the Aegis definitely helped keep them alive slightly longer.
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J.D. Welch

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 24, 2017 3:55 am

What do you think of this?

--------------------------------------
UCM 1250 - 04-400 - 1241pts
UCM - 0 launch assets

SR11 Vanguard battlegroup (227pts)
1 x Avalon - 195pts - H
   + UCM Commodore (40pts, 3AV)
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (242pts)
2 x Berlin - 210pts - M
1 x New Orleans - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (222pts)
1 x San Francisco - 111pts - M
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (208pts)
2 x New Cairo - 176pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR5 Pathfinder battlegroup (110pts)
3 x Santiago - 66pts - L
2 x Santiago - 44pts - L

SR6 Pathfinder battlegroup (192pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
------------- dflist.com -------------

I dropped your Admiral to an AV3, shuffled the New Orleans around because I really want those 5 Santiagos to go first, when they can (or at least have the option). I've also swapped out one New Cairo BG for a pair of Berlins with a lone New Orleans. I'm not comfortable going with just six Strike Carriers and one Death Trap, erm, I mean, one San Francisco for my Drop capacity, at least not in my meta. The Madrid helps, but they die like hookers, too. I can always swap the lone NO back for a Jakarta if I find that my Drop game is OK and the Berlin pair needs the protection (they did this past Friday!)

Here's the 1,500 point variant of this list:

--------------------------------------
UCM 1500 - 04-400 - 1489pts
UCM - 0 launch assets

SR16 Vanguard battlegroup (332pts)
1 x Avalon - 195pts - H
   + UCM Commodore (40pts, 3AV)
1 x Berlin - 105pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (242pts)
2 x Berlin - 210pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR16 Line battlegroup (301pts)
2 x Madrid - 158pts - M
1 x San Francisco - 111pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR11 Line battlegroup (208pts)
2 x New Cairo - 176pts - M
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L

SR7 Pathfinder battlegroup (174pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
3 x Santiago - 66pts - L
2 x Santiago - 44pts - L

SR6 Pathfinder battlegroup (192pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
------------- dflist.com -------------

Here I've added a solo Berlin to aid the Avalon in making sure things are dead, a second Madrid, and two New Orleans. In this version I've swapped the lone NO back out for a Jakarta, but I'm still not loving just eight Strike Carriers and one SF, so I might swap that back out for a New Orleans like in the 1,250 list above.

Point being (as per the OP)... the Jakartas do the Active Scanning when they're needed to, and by the time things are all lit up those BGs with the BTLs in them can then Course Change if they need to... :D

Thoughts, opinions, attitude? I'm kinda liking these...
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Leaving the Lima Crutch

PostWed May 24, 2017 5:00 am

I didn't really read the list above as I have been busy typing up this battlereport: viewtopic.php?f=40&t=10016

While you can read the report for more detail here is the part relevant to this thread. I was able to Active Scan with all 3 groups with my New Cairos and spread enough spikes to light up 2 troopships and a heavy crusier the turn I came on and in the following turn with the Jakarata only. From then on the New Orleans did actually break and away and survive to hit atmosphere and drop tanks while the Jakarata kept the Rio alive for an extra turn later in the game. It was basically a textbook example of why I didn't need Limas and how the other 2 ships provided much more value for 10pts cheaper.

Also looking back at this game I'm starting to doubt the value of Lima against PHR and Shaltari at all. With the superior scan ranges they can sit at 28" back from a New Cairo and laugh at it. Next turn wait for them to go first before sending in your ships to the now in range New Carios and kill them. To be fair thats not exactly what happened (I was torpedoed to death is what did...) but it wouldn't be hard for either race to pull that off with thier own Active Scanning frigates.


--------------------------------------
CotW UCM 1250 - 1247pts
UCM - 0 launch assets

SR10 Vanguard battlegroup (155pts)
1 x St Petersburg - 155pts - H
+ UCM Captain (20pts, 2AV)

SR17 Line battlegroup (328pts)
1 x Jakarta - 32pts - L
3 x New Cairo - 264pts - M
1 x New Orleans - 32pts - L

SR9 Line battlegroup (207pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M

SR10 Line battlegroup (210pts)
1 x Rio - 105pts - M
1 x Berlin - 105pts - M

SR5 Pathfinder battlegroup (120pts)
1 x New Orleans - 32pts - L
2 x Santiago - 44pts - L
2 x Santiago - 44pts - L

SR9 Pathfinder battlegroup (207pts)
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
2 x New Orleans - 64pts - L
1 x Madrid - 79pts - M
------------- dflist.com -------------
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