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2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

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Holdnpattern

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2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 5:41 am

I am neither very experienced or that good at DFC (I loose a lot... a lot) but DFlist tells me that both the Ifrit and the minimum group of Incubus (without the upgrade) cost the same amount of points. For someone who is looking to max his firepower per points with the furnace cannon, surly the Incubus is the 'no-brainer' option (and this has got to be fixed)?

It seems odd that you can get double the fire power from the destroyers over the Ifrit in terms of furnace canons. Adding to this the thrust, armour and can range are the same with the destroyer's sig being lower. As a group (1 ifrit vs 2 Incubus) collectively seems better given the smaller sig and double the furnace fire power. (Lets put the other weapons, collective group hull and one ship vs 2 issues aside unless people feel that these differences do explain paints parody).

The upgrade for 5pts is not only good for using up spare points but would, as I see it for now, further increase the advantage of the destroyer over the cruiser.

Tomorrow I proxy the 2 destroyers and test this in an actual game.

Am I reading this right, surly this makes the Incubus weapon too good?
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Lorn

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 7:44 am

Currently you are entirely correct and quite a few people, including me, are very displeased with the Destroyer balance. If you want to look at other broken ships I might direct you to the Kiev and don´t forget the 2 Damage it has.

TT-Combat might change the Destroyers in the future as they did with the Centurion, but currently the balance is not great.

If you check the link in my signature you will find an idea to fix the Inccubus damage by reducing it´s BTL value and taking the 4 attacks option away.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Holdnpattern

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 8:06 am

Thanks Lorn, Im more of a Dropzone player so it is good to hear Im not taking crazy pills on this one.

Hopefully TT will play test and fix (like they seem to have done with the centurion).

H.
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Stompzilla

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 4:44 pm

I don't think the Kiev is particularly bad. It could stand to pick up afew points in its final iteration but I think it'd be a shame to see it nerfed.

The Incubus is ridiculous though. I'm ok with Destroyers being a bit OTT. They are easy to kill and often require big spikes to get the most out of. Not so the Incubus though.

I agree that the biggest issue is the 4 shot mode which i think should go. I'm ok with the single shot mode being BT4. They have bigger sigs and shorter scans than the Shaltari BT Destroyer for a similar cost so balance out for me.
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Lorn

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSat Apr 28, 2018 6:42 pm

Have you seen the 2 Damage on the Kiev gun? I am asking as some people I talked to overlooked it (as it is rather unusual for UCM) thus where wondering what I was on about the Kiev. It has the a full Cruiser gun on standard orders and on weapons free it deals damage on the same level as a BTL, on top of that it has atmospheric which interestingly allows you to use the enemy sig. I find that a bit too good and far more universal then the Inccubus.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Stompzilla

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 7:50 am

I did see the 2 damage. On WF it averages around 2 and a bit damage against 3+ armour and spot on 3 for 4+.

Seems about on a par with other races gun Destroyers. Should kill a strike carrier a turn without WF except a Medea.

I wouldn't like to see it spammed though. A few makes a nice addition to a fleets abilities but fleets composed entirely of Kievs would be a problem IMO.

I haven't given it as much thought as you clearly have, i fully admit that.

Potential damage of 12 for a full 2 ship group is pretty scary but they are quite flimsy.

A few points on the cost (up to 65-70) and Rare would probably keep it an interesting choice but not ruin the fleet with spam.
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Lorn

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 8:32 am

My numbers for them are, first value for standard orders second for WF:

5+ Armour: 2,22 / 3,33
4+ Armour: 2 / 3
3+ Armour: 1,78 / 2,67
4+ Passive: 1,33 / 2

compared to a Cobra Laser:

5+ Armour: 3
4+ Armour: 2,85
3+ Armour: 2,71
4+ Passive: 1,65

The Laser wins by a small margin at 3+ Armour (and should do so against 2+ by a slightly wider margin), but is worse against all else in particular against Passive saves. The Kiev has a comparable fire power to a New Cairo, on top of atmospheric and better arc. Though it loses Flash, lastly the distribution on the Kiev is more reliable, as BTL tend towards extreme results.

The Furnance Cannon of the Inccubus and Ifrit is mostly comparable to the Cobra, but slightly worse against better armour and better against shields. As it has a higher hit to crit ratio. This is not counting Scald.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Stompzilla

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostSun Apr 29, 2018 11:30 am

Downside being of course that the Kiev needs to WF to get up to BTL levels and is a fragile ship, likely to be targeted for destruction quite early.

Thanks for the full breakdown of averages. Its helpful to see.
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Shikatanai

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Re: 2 Incubus (exp) vs 1 Ifrit

PostMon Apr 30, 2018 5:55 pm

Stompzilla wrote:Downside being of course that the Kiev needs to WF to get up to BTL levels and is a fragile ship, likely to be targeted for destruction quite early.

Thanks for the full breakdown of averages. Its helpful to see.


Usually ranges are quite unimportant once the battle begins - the only downside would be getting the arc adjusted... but that's not a problem especially with that low SR value.

Also the cost is just not comparible to e.g. a New Cairo. 2 New Cairos roughly cost the same as 3 Kiev and they bring better SR

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