It is currently Tue Jul 17, 2018 5:13 pm


Light Cruisers - how to fix them

With diplomacy and alien technology, annihilate everyone!
  • Author
  • Message
Offline

TempusFidget

  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostMon Jun 05, 2017 8:02 pm

I don't know about you guys, but I'm really disappointed with the Shaltari Light Cruisers - I want to really like them but I've found the gravity coils to be very underwhelming to use - far too variable in terms of getting damage or in terms of getting Impel to kick off - and when it does, its not particularly effective (Course Change or even just standard orders re-orientates the target easy enough). The other down side is that its 2 LCs both with F(N) fire arcs - I get why they didn't want Disruptors or Particles on them - otherwise what would be the point in the Amber/Granite, just costing less and with the vectored rules.

With this in mind I've been trying to think about how they could be made more useful and more inclusive to fleet lists. What I've come up with (and I admit I need to experiment with this, to see how it would play out), but what if they gained the Launch rule with Gates 1. This makes them 15 points short of an Emerald each, for 2 less gates capacity, 2 less hull, 3 less PD and +2" thrust, but keeping the vectored rule and similar weapons. They'd still require Voidgates to get troops to places, but it gives them an interesting new role int he fleet - especially with their group sizes of 2-3 - basically allowing you to spread out those gate launch capabilities across a group of 2-3 rather than concentrated on a single cruiser.

What do people think?
Offline

Kelbesq

  • Posts: 155
  • Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostMon Jun 05, 2017 9:48 pm

I think adding drop capacity to any other ship would drastically change the balance of the game.


I actually don't see problem with putting Disintergrators or Particle Lances on the light cruisers. The Yokai and Strix have the exact same weapons as their cruiser counterparts. The Theseus has comparable weapons as well. Both weapon types need to go weapons free to get full value out of them, which makes them a less the optimal choice for the Shaltari light cruisers. You don't need the Vectored rule to use Disintegrators, and if you are going weapons free, you aren't using Vectored anyway.

Disruptors aren't a bad weapon system, and the light cruiser chassis makes F(n) a non-issue thanks to the Vectored rule. They do about as much damage as the UF6400 on the Osaka (although we don't see many Osaka's on the table either...).

I do think Gravity Coils may need some adjustments. The damage is terrible, which would be fine if you had a reasonable chance of having the Impel effect trigger. After looking at the numbers a bit more, you do have a fair chance of Impel triggering (~37% vs 3+ armor) considering the high crit rate. With two Aquamarines, you stand a good chance of one of them triggering. The underlying problem is that it's usually more efficient to destroy your opponent rather than spin them. Maybe in the case of messing up an impending weapons free from a large ship it would make sense. In any other case, your target can just course change and fix themselves.


I think light cruisers make great heavy interceptors, but I am not sure there is a good use case for them in the game right now.
Offline

Eddieddi

  • Posts: 84
  • Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:55 am

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 2:09 am

I only have the gravity coils light cruisers right now, and honestly my shaltari fleet is pretty big as is, only missing a few frigates to its number. So I don't intend on building more.
HOWEVER we found the fastest fix for gravity coils is make them 2-2-2 rather than 2-2-1 It makes them a much bigger threat and makes impel way more likely to go off and solidifies the light cruiser in the role of 'agile heavy interceptor' using its impel to knock big enemy ships off course and stopping them firing their nasty guns.
Offline

Kelbesq

  • Posts: 155
  • Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2017 3:18 pm

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 2:27 am

I think 2-2-2 is fine for the Palladium, but on the Aquamarine it might be too strong. It would out damage the Azurite *and* have a very high chance to impel. There it would completely outclass the Azurite in every way, and unless you made it drastically cheaper, there wouldn't be any reason to ever take it. A pair would outdamage an Amber on weapons free and have a very high chance to impel once or twice. I think one of those would be fine, but not both.

Make one of the light cruisers do solid damage, and make the other have a strong chance to impel.

There are ways to raise the Impel chance without making the damage too high.
Giving it 3 attacks would be a good spot, but kind of goes against the model.
You could change it to Impel-1 instead of Impel-2.
You could also change the Impel special rule to take into account all weapons fired by the group, rather than just 1 ship.
You could change the Impel rule to count hits, even if the armor save is made.
You could give Gravity Coils and alt-fire mode - one mode for damage, the other with high impel chance.
Offline

TempusFidget

  • Posts: 20
  • Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2014 6:19 pm

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostTue Jun 06, 2017 6:37 pm

All fair points, and well made.

I'm just concerned, I guess that atm, the light cruisers bring nothing to the game. Shaltati dont really need fast interceptors due to their long scan ranges. The focus on F (n) weapons for the light cruisers is ok but frustrating when compared to Scourge and UCM - PHR have their own frustrations.
Current weapon options for Shal feel really limited, and given Shaltari are supposed to be the tricksy race. I just thought given an alternate ship with gate might be nice - esp with a G of 2-3. Means you pay more for the same drop than 1 Emerald, and requires more coherency but allows you to spread the launch over 3 ships rather than 1, and still works out cheaper than a Diamond.

On Impel - I dunno, potentially denying Weapons Free for a turn is nice but tbh it still feels like an ability that is nealy worthless compared to any other rule in the game due to how easy it is to counter, and how difficult in practice it is to pull off.
Offline
User avatar

Cry of the Wind

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 1047
  • Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2015 12:27 pm
  • Location: Airdrie, Alberta, Canada

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostFri Jun 09, 2017 12:33 am

I have seen only one Shatari player use them. He has tried both types in 2's and 3's with little success against me. I'm not sold on them being bad as I have beat this player everytime with my UCM regardless of lists so I think it is player skill in this case but I don't see them helping him much either.

I'd be curious to see the stats for the Gravity Coil to be tweaked. Maybe make it 3+ or 4+ with 2 damage?
Offline

Gavri3l

  • Posts: 99
  • Joined: Tue Nov 29, 2016 12:13 am

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 12:41 am

I feel like in general Dave expected that people would be relying on WF far more than they actually do in the game. For the most part, people choose to avoid fielding ships that need to use WF in order to do significant damage, which makes Impel a far less useful ability because if you can fire all of your meaningful guns on course change (New Cairo, Seattle, Hydra, just about all PHR ships, Diamond, etc.) then being pushed 45 or even 90 degrees isn't a really big deal, and the odds of a 90 degree turn happening are pretty low in the first place.

It's one of those miscalculations just like torpedoes, where the ability sounds a lot more important than it actually turns out to be in practice.
Offline
User avatar

J.D. Welch

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 5215
  • Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 7:16 am
  • Location: Gilbert, AZ, USA

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 5:59 am

Gavri3l wrote:I feel like in general Dave expected that people would be relying on WF far more than they actually do in the game. For the most part, people choose to avoid fielding ships that need to use WF in order to do significant damage, which makes Impel a far less useful ability because if you can fire all of your meaningful guns on course change (New Cairo, Seattle, Hydra, just about all PHR ships, Diamond, etc.) then being pushed 45 or even 90 degrees isn't a really big deal, and the odds of a 90 degree turn happening are pretty low in the first place.

It's one of those miscalculations just like torpedoes, where the ability sounds a lot more important than it actually turns out to be in practice.

I'd attribute that to Andy more so than Dave... He doesn't get off the hook, he wrote most of the rules...
I love my job (well, I love having a job), but a bad day of gaming beats a good day of work every time!

http://www.theroadtovalhalla.blogspot.com
Offline

Lorn

Hawk Talon

  • Posts: 2430
  • Joined: Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:48 pm

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 3:16 pm

Gavri3l wrote:I feel like in general Dave expected that people would be relying on WF far more than they actually do in the game.


I cannot really agree to that sentiment, at least not for all factions. It depends a lot on the faction, with PHR this might be the case but Scourge are quite a different matter.

Though I would agree that Impel was a overestimated mechanic Dave even stated in an interview that they tested swarms of Impel ships because they feared they would be to powerful. Which in hindsight seems off compared to other things.

Lastly I agree that the Shaltari light Cruisers are suffering from internal balance issues of the Shalatri namely that most things are more attractive then them.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
Offline

Castro

  • Posts: 27
  • Joined: Mon Mar 31, 2014 12:28 am

Re: Light Cruisers - how to fix them

PostThu Aug 17, 2017 7:48 pm

Unpopular opinion - why not port over the hard to hit rule from firestorm? Essentially you have a -1 hit modifier hitting a ship smaller then you - so a cruiser hitting a light cruiser would incur a -1 to hit. That can be cumulative with orbit modifiers as well. That coupled with some of Andy chambers house rules (going max thrust incurs a -1 penalty, change course doesn't shake bombers but silent running does) that may help light cruisers a hell of a lot more. Points would help as well. I LOVEEE my osaka's - but why would I take them over new cairos if they are essentially the same in points?
Next

Return to Shaltari - Fleet Lists and Tactics

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest