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My New 1250 Shaltari List

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jjakaalbinoboy

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My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 1:42 pm

So with a few upcoming tournaments, I'm looking at moving from UCM to Shaltari, I've already got the models and had a few lower point games but the list below is what I'm toying with using at the next event.

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Shaltari 1250 Clash - 1250pts
Shaltari - 8 launch assets

SR16 Flag battlegroup (305pts)
1 x Diamond - 290pts - S
   + Starchief (80pts, 4AV)
1 x Voidgate - 15pts - L

SR10 Vanguard battlegroup (200pts)
1 x Ruby - 200pts - H

SR10 Line battlegroup (290pts)
1 x Basalt - 145pts - M
1 x Basalt - 145pts - M

SR8 Line battlegroup (145pts)
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M
2 x Voidgate - 30pts - L
1 x Voidgate - 15pts - L

SR8 Pathfinder battlegroup (145pts)
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M
1 x Voidgate - 15pts - L
2 x Voidgate - 30pts - L

SR8 Pathfinder battlegroup (145pts)
1 x Emerald - 100pts - M
1 x Voidgate - 15pts - L
2 x Voidgate - 30pts - L
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http://dflist.com/s/#/share/abb0507484155
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JJ - DzC: UCM DfC: UCM

Gaming @ Redditch Wargaming Society - Redditch, Worcestershire, UK
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Shikatanai

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostThu Jan 18, 2018 8:42 pm

I'd say not enough voidgates for the amount of drop you bring. No spare gates for Networking and if you loose one you cannot drop your full amount. Besides that I'd definetly move the VG from the Diamond to one of the Emeralds.
Imho Basalts and Ruby are also subpar, especially the latter, but that's also a matter of taste I guess.
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Stompzilla

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 3:07 pm

Looks fine to me. Not optimal but if you learn how to play it, you could do really well.

You have a less than optimal number of Void Gates but, again you can play around that.

Personally, I'm not such a fan of having both a battleship and a Battlecruiser in the same list at 1,250 but I don't see what else you could fit in for 200pts.
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incy

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 3:45 pm

The list is really short ranged for Shaltari, and you're playing very fairly to your opponent. That's fine if that's your intention, but you won't be able to dictate how the opponent plays the game.

The ruby is okish with av4 (but would be better with 5), and if you're wedded to the idea of a diamond (platinum is better in tournament scenarios) then the two basalt approach is reasonable. I've tried high and low drop, and keep coming back to my comfort zone of 7/8. E - I do agree that fitting in a diamond and ruby in to the same 1250 list seems tough, as that means most of your big scoring assets have to choose to score or shoot on turns 4 and 6.

You will have a horrible time on distant approach scenarios but splitting up the basalts seems a bad idea. Honestly I'd drop an emerald and make a <10 fast combat group (topaz/amber mix maybe?). Shaltari drop is expensive and bad at the swarm game, but you can get to places with little difficulty, so controlling space is a lot more viable than it is for other factions.
I play shaltari, and am apparently a topaz hipster!
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Shikatanai

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 4:19 pm

incy wrote: and if you're wedded to the idea of a diamond (platinum is better in tournament scenarios)


Can you elaborate on that? I'd take the Diamond over the Platinum in 100% of the games when playing competitive.

incy wrote:You will have a horrible time on distant approach scenarios but splitting up the basalts seems a bad idea.


Coming in late on distant comes in handy more often than not if you are shaltari because of your absurdly high threatranges - that's also one of several reasons why I wouldn't take Shaltari Carriers - their effective range is much more limited than conventional weaponry.

incy wrote:Honestly I'd drop an emerald and make a <10 fast combat group (topaz/amber mix maybe?).

I agree with that. A fast Topaz group (would not go for cruisers if doing so) can be really effective and useful - if I go "low" on drop I'd always include some.

incy wrote:Shaltari drop is expensive and bad at the swarm game, but you can get to places with little difficulty, so controlling space is a lot more viable than it is for other factions.

Not agreeing on that as well. Shaltari drop seems to be expensive and bad for swarming at first sight but actually they do it much better than all those other factions right now - because all their ships that provide dropping capability are also bringing in utility, guns and sustain.
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incy

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostFri Jan 19, 2018 4:47 pm

Shikatanai wrote:Can you elaborate on that? I'd take the Diamond over the Platinum in 100% of the games when playing competitive.


Sure. The platinum's arc is far better than the diamond's, and it does more damage adjusted for points if you can't weapons free (vs 3 up, 2.33/100 for the diamond assuming you roll a 2 damage cripple, compared to 2.96/100 from the platinum), which you often can't due to the arcs. Even when weapons free, they are virtually identical (diamond 3.71/100, platinum 3.70/100). In addition I have often felt torn between taking the shot I want and scoring the crit location I want on turns 4 & 6 with the diamond, even when course changing, which isn't a problem the platinum has. You can get game changing crippling results from the diamond, but you can also get bright flashes, and I prefer the reliability with a fleet as fragile but powerful as shaltari are. I'd never take the diamond to a competitive tournament while the platinum exists because of the above, even if it is a really fun ship.

Shikatanai wrote:Not agreeing on that as well. Shaltari drop seems to be expensive and bad for swarming at first sight but actually they do it much better than all those other factions right now - because all their ships that provide dropping capability are also bringing in utility, guns and sustain.


We're paying 47 points for a drop asset and have two points of failure. I also disagree on the additional utility and guns - the equivalent points of NO class frigates actually [e - assumed they were in CAW] does only slightly less damage than an emerald/3 gates at range, and shoots up if they can use CAW. The NO probably score better too (5*1 v a single 5), but the emerald can score while the gates drop, so I would say they have similar utility rather than better. The non-shaltari is obviously tougher, and only loses 1/5 of its drop per element rather than 1/3. We're only slightly behind in a contested drop thanks to the charged air, but if we don't get there first or start losing gates (in the above scenario our gates lose the atmo war at a rate of one gate every 2 and a bit turns) then we fall behind very quickly.

Shaltari drop does perform very well when you can create a pool of reinforcements on a space station t1 then double drop, particularly if the opponent tries to bring on heavy assets early, but this isn't always possible. We tend to lose out in brawling contests, and if we can't destroy the troop ships will just lose to the post t6 drop anyway.
I play shaltari, and am apparently a topaz hipster!
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Stompzilla

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

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Shikatanai

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 11:03 am

incy wrote:Sure. The platinum's arc is far better than the diamond's, and it does more damage adjusted for points if you can't weapons free (vs 3 up, 2.33/100 for the diamond assuming you roll a 2 damage cripple, compared to 2.96/100 from the platinum), which you often can't due to the arcs. Even when weapons free, they are virtually identical (diamond 3.71/100, platinum 3.70/100). In addition I have often felt torn between taking the shot I want and scoring the crit location I want on turns 4 & 6 with the diamond, even when course changing, which isn't a problem the platinum has. You can get game changing crippling results from the diamond, but you can also get bright flashes, and I prefer the reliability with a fleet as fragile but powerful as shaltari are. I'd never take the diamond to a competitive tournament while the platinum exists because of the above, even if it is a really fun ship.


To be honest I did not have any issues getting out one or two WF with the Diamond per game - and even if not the crippling effect is huge while it is much easier for the opponent to play around bombers. Most of the time when Bombers are working out fine is when opponents do not know how to play around debrisfields and the range advantage. Especially in Mirrormatches this kills the Platinum for me concerning competitive play.

incy wrote:We're paying 47 points for a drop asset and have two points of failure. I also disagree on the additional utility and guns - the equivalent points of NO class frigates actually [e - assumed they were in CAW] does only slightly less damage than an emerald/3 gates at range, and shoots up if they can use CAW. The NO probably score better too (5*1 v a single 5), but the emerald can score while the gates drop, so I would say they have similar utility rather than better. The non-shaltari is obviously tougher, and only loses 1/5 of its drop per element rather than 1/3. We're only slightly behind in a contested drop thanks to the charged air, but if we don't get there first or start losing gates (in the above scenario our gates lose the atmo war at a rate of one gate every 2 and a bit turns) then we fall behind very quickly.


For 15 of those points we get a 5+ shot in atmo and a defence battery for all clusters active before your opponent can even drop something - that is HUGE!
Comparing a ship's weaponry that has 22" range without applying spikes and Sig with Strikecarriers CAW with range being set at 16" range against PD while they shoul usually sit in atmo anyway or are much easier removed... not what I would call reasonable.

Comparing a set value of Points for both factions does not paint the complete picture. The thing is that it is easily possible to invest much more Points in dropping capability than other factions. E.g. a list with 4 Emeralds and 18 gates would equal ~21 Strikecarriers. Even if a UCM player invests these Points he has huge problems both in Orbit and in Atmo. 18 Gates outdamage 21 Strikecarriers while the UCM player would have 670 Points that are actually needed to win the groundgame due to charged air - in Addition the Shaltari player has still 4 Motherships that can apply damage, take crits and are reasonably tanking especially when using debrisfields.
There is simply no way where UCM can be more flexible because the points invested are in fact dedicated to one cause and they are needed there. If the UCM player has the opportunity to actually use NO as fighting vessels the Shaltari either has way less drop capability in his list or made some huge mistakes. The exception is of course Station Assault - that's of course the weakest Shaltari scenario but still I'd take the Shaltari drop over the UCMs 100%.

incy wrote:Shaltari drop does perform very well when you can create a pool of reinforcements on a space station t1 then double drop, particularly if the opponent tries to bring on heavy assets early, but this isn't always possible. We tend to lose out in brawling contests, and if we can't destroy the troop ships will just lose to the post t6 drop anyway.


That double dropping is actually not a valid tactic because you can not relocate from stations...
and sorry but with the last statement I really lost it - Shaltari in fact have the strongest dropgame in this game by far, maybe this comes down to meta and listbuilding but with the right setup it is the other way round and the opponent has to remove MS or Gates (have fun with that) to compete with the Shaltaris groundforce and that's huge because Shaltari can dictate the game so well and can use their range advantage to the biggest effect.
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Takxis

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 8:30 pm

@ Shikatanai, you keep refering to a Voidgates offensive atmo ability
For 15 of those points we get a 5+ shot in atmo and a defence battery for all clusters active before your opponent can even drop something - that is HUGE! here as well on other posts,
unless i am reading the rules wrong , Voidgates have no offensive ability, apart from the shooting at landing bulk carriers and drop ships.
what are you refering to?
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Shikatanai

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Re: My New 1250 Shaltari List

PostSun Jan 21, 2018 10:00 pm

Takxis wrote:@ Shikatanai, you keep refering to a Voidgates offensive atmo ability
For 15 of those points we get a 5+ shot in atmo and a defence battery for all clusters active before your opponent can even drop something - that is HUGE! here as well on other posts,
unless i am reading the rules wrong , Voidgates have no offensive ability, apart from the shooting at landing bulk carriers and drop ships.
what are you refering to?


They have
a.) Voidgates and Charged Air P197 for shooting down Strikecraft
and
b.) A standard weaponsprofile (also called Charged Air), with 5+ lock for 1 damage and Air to Air

VGs not only shoot down Bulklanders but have the best atmospheric weapon of all Strikecarriers
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