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Void Gates are still too good.

Discuss tactics and general fleet concepts not specific to a faction
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostThu Jan 04, 2018 7:50 pm

I see your point about destroyers (and I'd like to see better corvettes as well - I guess we both do).
However if this is not the case removing the charged air completely is not a good idea imho as Shaltari will get overrun by e.g. Troopshipheavy PHR lists. Removing the possibility to shoot down Groundassets from one Faction completely (that already has only a 5+ against Troopships) is not a good idea I think.

Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 1:50 am

I agree that Voidgates are still too good. I like the idea that you need 3 to get the defence battery bonus. Combine that with anti atmo destroyers and we might be in a good place. I could also see Voidgates getting a boost in points cost, maybe 18 if they need 3 to defend.
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Stompzilla

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 12:08 pm

Shikatanai wrote:Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)


The Basalt is a recent addition. It's an ultimate support ship, active scanning and providing fighter support for the shielded bruisers and comes forwards later in the game much like Emeralds. I've been super impressed with the Basalt the last couple of games.

Previously I had 2 Turquoise and no Opals but I think I like this version better.

Lol, they do indeed! Although Charlie who won the Midlands Maelstrom had a pretty unique take on the Shaltari
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 2:29 pm

Stompzilla wrote:
Shikatanai wrote:Your list looks pretty similar compared to mine - the only thing I really do not like is the Basalt but the basis is the same (To be fair the basis of competitive Shaltari lists looks often the same :D)


The Basalt is a recent addition. It's an ultimate support ship, active scanning and providing fighter support for the shielded bruisers and comes forwards later in the game much like Emeralds. I've been super impressed with the Basalt the last couple of games.

Previously I had 2 Turquoise and no Opals but I think I like this version better.

Lol, they do indeed! Although Charlie who won the Midlands Maelstrom had a pretty unique take on the Shaltari


Try out another Emerald instead of the Basalt - you'll love it :P
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Stompzilla

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostFri Jan 05, 2018 2:38 pm

I like the variety too much.

Also the look on PHR player's faces when they launch masses of bombers against shielded Ambers/Diamond and come away with next to nothing is priceless! :lol:

I can quite often get 2 scans out of that battle group too, which is nice.
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Eddieddi

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 6:49 am

I know it might not be a 'good' solution, But what about giving the Shaltari the ability to chose to either drop troops or do charged air? fits in with the 3 VG needed to use it, but gives a player the option to park a VG over a cluster and just be a pain in the neck (Which I have always felt is part of the Shaltari's style). I know it dosn't solve the vg spam but it might make them 'weaker'.
THe other option is giving Shaltari a second 'void gate' one that can't drop, but is capable of using charged air, and has a bit better in atomo combat.

The issue however (In my opinion) Is much deeper in the system, and honestly has something to do with the whole 'drop' mechanic. A competitive list has to have lots of drop, The shaltari drop is very void gate heavy. to get 'optimum' drop out of a mother-ship you need 4 voidgates. This means that in a vaguely competitive list, the minimum void gates is about 12. Unless you 1) increase the void gate drop capacity 2) fully re-work the drop mechanics for shaltari you will always have the issue.
What about this for a solution: Void gates get a drop of 2, so you reduce the maximum needed for optimum capacity, And then increase the points. This also means you no longer have the requirement for quite so meany 'redundant' void gates.

The other issue is the 'fragility' of voidgates, With the 2 hull I have found that my VG tend to explode very fast. even in atmo they evaporate. So I take lots of redundancies. leaving me with little to no points left for 'flexible' groups. so the game devolves in to a game of 'wack the void gate' for my foe. while I just pick off key ships with my 1 or 2 super heavy hitting groups.

I don't have a solution to this, as 3 hull void gates as we know are very strong. Maybe giving them 4 hull, and cause using charged air cost 1 hull? so, you call 'charged air' deal 1 damage to the void gate (no save) and that voidgate has charged air for the rest of the turn. unless it is destroyed. given the above change and a substantial points increase, it could make voidgates far more valuable and a much more tactical decision rather than just "Yup, pack 16 of those in to my list so that I can get all my drop down and deny the enemey."
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Shikatanai

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Re: Void Gates are still too good.

PostMon Jan 15, 2018 7:27 am

Eddieddi wrote:I know it might not be a 'good' solution, But what about giving the Shaltari the ability to chose to either drop troops or do charged air? fits in with the 3 VG needed to use it, but gives a player the option to park a VG over a cluster and just be a pain in the neck (Which I have always felt is part of the Shaltari's style). I know it dosn't solve the vg spam but it might make them 'weaker'.

The thing is that exactly this is why it is so strong. You do not suffer from supplying 15 or even 30 Pts without dropping anything while chipping some damage, shooting down drop and than being able to react while dropping yourself. Sometimes it just needs some lucky 5s to completely change the game because you are able to just counter drop a cluster when it gets weak by charged air.

Eddieddi wrote:The issue however (In my opinion) Is much deeper in the system, and honestly has something to do with the whole 'drop' mechanic. A competitive list has to have lots of drop, The shaltari drop is very void gate heavy. to get 'optimum' drop out of a mother-ship you need 4 voidgates. This means that in a vaguely competitive list, the minimum void gates is about 12. Unless you 1) increase the void gate drop capacity 2) fully re-work the drop mechanics for shaltari you will always have the issue.
What about this for a solution: Void gates get a drop of 2, so you reduce the maximum needed for optimum capacity, And then increase the points. This also means you no longer have the requirement for quite so meany 'redundant' void gates.


I think we need to differentiate here. Yes all lists that are competitive include a lot of strikecraft - but that's not the problem with gates. The Problem is that they are just too good for what they do compared to other factions.
Giving them a drop of 2 sounds not bad but brings in a lot of other problems. They need to be much more costly but do not fit very well with the amount of drop Motherships supply... I think this would create other problems.

Eddieddi wrote:The other issue is the 'fragility' of voidgates, With the 2 hull I have found that my VG tend to explode very fast. even in atmo they evaporate. So I take lots of redundancies. leaving me with little to no points left for 'flexible' groups. so the game devolves in to a game of 'wack the void gate' for my foe. while I just pick off key ships with my 1 or 2 super heavy hitting groups.


Just out of interest: From what do you frequently loose gates? Yeah some of them might pop but they are not much less stable than other strikecarriers (except PHR ofc) especially since their PD is much more reliable against Corvettes. Yes you need some redundancies but imho not more than other factions and they pay double for it...
Yes Shaltari lists are not that flexible right now but that also comes down to other choices... a lot of them just suck setting a competitive Standard. In addition other factions are also quite set cause they need to bring even more drop capability to stand a chance against Shaltari, they are just more flexible in how they do it and how they fill the rest - it's just internal balancing.

Eddieddi wrote:I don't have a solution to this, as 3 hull void gates as we know are very strong. Maybe giving them 4 hull, and cause using charged air cost 1 hull? so, you call 'charged air' deal 1 damage to the void gate (no save) and that voidgate has charged air for the rest of the turn. unless it is destroyed. given the above change and a substantial points increase, it could make voidgates far more valuable and a much more tactical decision rather than just "Yup, pack 16 of those in to my list so that I can get all my drop down and deny the enemey."


I agree that VGs should get more costly while getting also more sustain. It will make a a huge difference if you suddenly only have like 2/3 of VGs or need to reduce the Orbit firepower even more. Don't like the exchange of charged air against hull though in combination with it.
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