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[DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

Discuss tactics and general army concepts not specific to a faction
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DropzoneCommenter

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[DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostWed May 18, 2016 7:17 pm

Hey Commanders!

Our latest article is up, covering demolition for fun and profit (but mainly fun). DZCasualty is here in his always-colorful style to show off his picks for demolition all-stars and strats for putting them to work best. Check it out!

http://gamerati.com/demolishing-your-way-to-victory/

Next time, we'll be running the next article in our Command School series, talking about infantry and infantry tactics.

Let us know what you all think!
Check my biweekly blog on tactics, hobby, and fundamentals in DZC and DFC at dzcommenter.com!
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Petrov

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostWed May 18, 2016 8:49 pm

I see PHR get no mention for Taranis. Is it that bad?
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Gonefishing

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostWed May 18, 2016 9:48 pm

Yes :)

Good read - The Angelos deserved more of a mention I think :) its a 30 Point Transport that can do 4 Pts of damage to a building and one of the most versatile / mobile ways to get Demo into a PHR list when its used as a Valkyrie carrier.

As an example:


PHR Standard Roster [1496/1500 pts]
Hand of the Sphere [351 pts]
Command Squad: Zeus(Councillor), Enyo [201 pts]
Valkyries: 2x Valkyries, 2x Angelos [150 pts]

Battle Pantheon [63 pts]
Battle Squad: Phobos [63 pts]

Battle Pantheon [223 pts]
Battle Squad: Phobos [63 pts]
Helios Squad: 2x Helios, Neptune [160 pts]

Immortals [144 pts]
AM Rifle Team: 2x Immortal Longreach Team, 2x Angelos [144 pts]

Pegasus Group [440 pts]
Valkyries: 2x Valkyries, 2x Angelos [150 pts]
Valkyries: 2x Valkyries, 2x Angelos [150 pts]
Medusa: Medusa, Triton X [140 pts]

Heavy Pantheon [275 pts]
Hades: Hades, Poseidon [275 pts]


Its not massively mobile, so I'm not sure I would recommend it - but it will take down a 40 point building a turn :)
Last edited by Gonefishing on Wed May 18, 2016 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Amitverse

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostWed May 18, 2016 10:12 pm

The unit break down was nice and useful. I would say reapers also provide a decent demo attack for scourge, short sure, but E8 is useful, plus they hit on 2+.

Object denial is a big part of of the demo game, but there is also the more subtle part of having the enemy fight where you want to.

You make a good point about activating the infantry first on the second turn, or turn after entering. I think it is also a good idea on the first turn to activate infantry last (you sort of imply it in the article). That way you don't give the enemy a "prime" target and you can see where their demo units are, giving you an indication of which buildings they are threatening.

I would have liked to have seen a bit about the choice between shooting at infantry at the walls or demoing the building they are in. Is there a choice? Should you always do one over the other?

I like how these articles are kept simple with no automatic assumptions made about players knowing the correct choice of action. You have kept them basic and simple (which I mean as compliment)
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Bengt

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostThu May 19, 2016 1:35 pm

Re: demo units for UCM.

Points cost / average demo damage:
Eagles: 16.5
Drive on Katanas: 16.65
Longbow + Raven B with missile pod: 18
Drive on Wolverine B: 19.2
Drive on Gladius: 26.55
Drive on Rapiers: 27
Seraphim bunker buster: 20.16, but is L-4 (a MF only gets ~3.9 attack runs on average (~4.7 with FACs on every turn) so it probably wont get to shot the plasma). But other units wont necessarily get to shot all six turns either for various reasons, so make what you want from it.

Anyway, even without paying for dropships Rapiers and Galdius are terribly inefficient at demo. Sure you'll probably have some Rapiers in your list anyway so they can throw some shots at buildings occasionally. But then any weapon with E5 or higher can do that if they don't have proper targets, so that should be a global advice, not license to pretend that Rapiers or Galdius are good at demo.
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wowskyguy

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostThu May 19, 2016 2:37 pm

Good article. I like the idea of eliminating terrain pieces on the board. I like the way demo is handled in the game.

On the anti-infantry part, demo is very efficient. A lot more (due range) than Flame weapons. Having better range and also being used to destroy cover, deny objectives and general purpose keeps Flames out of tournaments.

In my mind, flame weapons should be better than demolition at eliminating infantry. It just thought a house rule: If the weapon is firing at a building beyond it's R(C) and within it's R(F), it cannot do "double" base damage. Damage may be later multiplied by demo value. It changes nothing for Scourge, degrades UCM long range "demo" units.

IRL, high energy AT rounds are usually very bad at demolition. They just make a small size hole through the building. For demo, they use HE rounds.

Cheers,
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Andy

"Here's everything I know
about war: Somebody wins,
somebody loses, and
nothing is ever the same again."
Admiral Constanza Stark,
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Maninblue

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostThu May 19, 2016 3:11 pm

wowskyguy wrote:IRL, high energy AT rounds are usually very bad at demolition. They just make a small size hole through the building. For demo, they use HE rounds.

True, that's why most armoured vehicles carry both types of rounds and pick before they fire.
Those vehicles with auto-loaders often have a dual magazine that they can select which a new round would come from - often an uneven split such as 35/15. Depending on the role, they might have 35 AP and 15 HE... or 35 HE and 15 AP for the Katana.
I can just imagine some weeping Logistician trying desperately to explain to his supply chain that he's running out of HE Katana rounds while drowning in their AP equivalent. ;)
Dave 2 / Man in Blue
~ "Something he disagreed with ate him."
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DropzoneCommenter

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostThu May 19, 2016 3:47 pm

Gonefishing wrote:Good read - The Angelos deserved more of a mention I think :)


I'm a personally a fan of the Angelos vs. the Enyo (due to cost and utility) so we sort of encompassed that in the Honorable Mention section. You're absolutely right, though - the Angelos is the best platform for the smoothbore cannon, and its definitely the biggest gun on any transport in the game (save the double plasma cannon on the Despoiler).

Amitverse wrote:The unit break down was nice and useful. I would say reapers also provide a decent demo attack for scourge, short sure, but E8 is useful, plus they hit on 2+.


True. I'm usually using my AA to go aircraft hunting, however, so I've only shot Reapers at a building about...two times :)

I think it is also a good idea on the first turn to activate infantry last (you sort of imply it in the article). That way you don't give the enemy a "prime" target and you can see where their demo units are, giving you an indication of which buildings they are threatening.


Too right. Since my Scourge Warriors are so exceptional at dying to Falling Masonry, I definitely recommend that. This particular topic is already covered in our next article, on infantry tactics, in fact :)

I would have liked to have seen a bit about the choice between shooting at infantry at the walls or demoing the building they are in. Is there a choice? Should you always do one over the other?


I think the big choice is whether you plan to send in your own troops to take that objective - demolition is a two way street, and a permanent choice. By way of addessing Casualty's prejudices...he never engages in CQB as the aggressor. :lol:

I like how these articles are kept simple with no automatic assumptions made about players knowing the correct choice of action. You have kept them basic and simple (which I mean as compliment)


Thank you very much! If I had a professional vocation, it would be explaining complex things in the simplest way I can (former author of self-help articles for AARP and Starbucks, web CMS coach, writing trainer, and now pro game designer) :) It's actually much easier to write these when I assume nothing beyond general goals with actions, as there's simply too many variables in skill, experience, and situations on the ground to write effectively.

wowskyguy wrote:On the anti-infantry part, demo is very efficient. A lot more (due range) than Flame weapons. Having better range and also being used to destroy cover, deny objectives and general purpose keeps Flames out of tournaments.[

In my mind, flame weapons should be better than demolition at eliminating infantry. /quote]

Flame I'm going to address in the massive (at least two part) article on CQB. Flame is "troop demolition" and CQB is the follow up. I agree Falling Masonry is terribly efficient at troop removal - still, I think, a little too good with E6...I'd prefer to see it E5 to give certain troops a benefit from their armor - but it comes at a massive cost of also making it more dangerous should the demo player want to move into that structure and take the objective later. What I see time and again is that those demo players don't care; they get the points lead then demo the rest of the objectives, making demo as a strategy have far less drawback. A sound strategy, but frustrating to me as a Scourge player who is forced by short range and mission-focus out of that sort of tactic.

It just thought a house rule: If the weapon is firing at a building beyond it's R(C) and within it's R(F), it cannot do "double" base damage. Damage may be later multiplied by demo value. It changes nothing for Scourge, degrades UCM long range "demo" units.


That's a big change, and I'm sure DZCasualty would be...a bit miffed at that sort of rule as a UCM player :) I think it has a few TOO many impacts (like massively nerfing mid-E firepower like dropship missiles and rockets, rocket technicals and so on, which have little utility beyond demo) and would make troops in a structure far more survivable.

My personal hope is that we see something like the fix to "demo" as I saw in the Beta Day for Dropfleet Commander: you can kill an objective containing structure (in that game, a Cluster), but it will cost you a VP. This prevents demo from being a no-brainer go-to strategy or a way of consolidating a runaway lead; now, you only want to demolish something when it looks like your opponent is going to score more points from an objective than you'd be losing. This would also single-handedly handle the crucial issue of Focal Points in Structures (one of the few things I outright refuse to do when I play, as erasing a FP with demo is way too swingy in the game).

Thanks for all your comments everyone!
Check my biweekly blog on tactics, hobby, and fundamentals in DZC and DFC at dzcommenter.com!
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wowskyguy

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostThu May 19, 2016 9:27 pm

Maninblue wrote:
wowskyguy wrote:IRL, high energy AT rounds are usually very bad at demolition. They just make a small size hole through the building. For demo, they use HE rounds.

True, that's why most armoured vehicles carry both types of rounds and pick before they fire.
Those vehicles with auto-loaders often have a dual magazine that they can select which a new round would come from - often an uneven split such as 35/15. Depending on the role, they might have 35 AP and 15 HE... or 35 HE and 15 AP for the Katana.
I can just imagine some weeping Logistician trying desperately to explain to his supply chain that he's running out of HE Katana rounds while drowning in their AP equivalent. ;)


Ammo choosing works great for cannons and railguns. Lasers and particle weapons can trekish "remodulate their frequency" to achieve better HE effect? Gulp... yeah, I can accept that.

@dzcommenter That VP idea is great! May make tournament scene less demo(nic)!

Cheers,
--
Andy

"Here's everything I know
about war: Somebody wins,
somebody loses, and
nothing is ever the same again."
Admiral Constanza Stark,
C.Y. 9784
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Egge

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Re: [DZCommenter] Demolishing Your Way to Victory

PostWed Jun 01, 2016 5:18 pm

Was reading the post again and thought about it a bit. It is interesting because I have a different point of view on demo armies. For me they are only vital in some few games. About 1/3. They are usable in most missions but in those missions you have much better options in most cases.

Edit; and good post. :) More please.
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