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Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

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Creeping Dementia

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Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 1:29 am

So I just finished Phase 2 background stuff, and I'm itching to discuss some things.

WARNING* don't read further if you haven't read Phase 2, it will spoil some great moments for you!!












Still here? Ok.

So obviously the whole Ferrum thing is a big deal, but its not one of the more interesting things I read. Lets face it, did we really think the Scourge were just going to sit in a defensive action for the entire reconquest? Of course not, I think we all expected the war to spread beyond the Cradle.

I'm most interested in the Shaltari being the ones orchestrating the initial invasion. In particular, that humanity was the third race the Shaltari tried to get the Scourge to attack. However, the key word in that passage is "attempted", meaning the Shaltari were not successful in getting the Scourge to attack every race they wanted... meaning there is at least one, maybe two, races out there that the Scourge were guided to by the Shaltari, and the Scourge didn't take the bait!
Why wouldn't the Scourge take the bait every time? They tell us indirectly. They went after humanity because they were juicy, a relatively soft target. So the race (or two) that the Scourge didn't go for must have been strong enough to be a threat to the very existence of the Scourge if they were to invade them. Sounds like possibilities for a future release! Strong enough to stand up to the Scourge, hated by the Shaltari, and obviously strong enough to be a threat to the others.


Now moving on to the next hints at the next race, the PHR agent communications. The upcoming threat is a danger to all life...ALL LIFE. To me that means an artificial, non-organic race. Think Necrons/Skynet. Why couldn't it be something else? If it was a typical, naturally evolving race, then they wouldn't be a threat to all life unless they planned on wiping themselves out once they cleansed the universe all the other life... which makes no sense.

Most importantly, I think these races were talking about are all different, not overlapping. The Shaltari would not have tried to lead the Scourge to the AI/robot race, they couldn't be hosts, so the Scourge would have no interest. So we have the one or two races the Shaltari are trying to get rid of (using the Scourge as a crude weapon), and one artificial race. That's 2-3 races. How many more races are going to be in the game (per Dave)? 8. We have 5, need 3 more, and Dave has laid out possibilities for 2-3 more races, probably 2, leaving him room for one more if the story evolves in a way he didn't foresee.

Thoughts?
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Samael

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 8:01 am

I've read it slightly differently to you.

From what the scourge said I think the destroyed the other races put in their way
"This is the shaltari's third attempt to throw another speicies in our path in an effort to end us."
Later on, "we are still here"

We know that the Shaltari did manipulate humanity by giving them the cradle world's, originally believed to increase our numbers to fight over Shaltari. So it is possible it was to actually fight the scourge.

However the Shaltari are a fragmented race. So it could be that when the friends settled man on the cradle world's their enemy directed the scourge against them. This would explain why the colonies were not found. The enemy tribes knew of the cradle world's.

The scourge are just trying to drive a wedge between the UCM and the few allies they have. The Shaltari are probably the only threat, we know of, to the scourge. However the Shaltari are divided, and are sending their full strength against the scourge.

I'm not sure what to make the the PHR section. It dos imply that the white sphere knew something of the Shaltari's involvement. However their desire to nature the hatred of the UCM is strange.

Why will the UCM and the PHR remember this day?

I still think that the scourge are the threat to all life. The will keep on consuming races at a rate too fast for new ones to take their place. Then their last hosts will die.

Now from some very crazy conspiracy theories.
The Shaltari set up the human race in the cradle planets, just like the scourge said, to be attacked by them. However they also protected the colonies, to allow humanity to build up its strength. What they wanted was the massive battles across dozens of world's.

The reason, it is an election year, or century. They need to decide which tribe will lead them for the next millennium. They don't want to fight each other, it would be too costly. They can't openly attack another race, humanity will just slowly push them back, using waves after waves of our own men.

Instead they instigate a war between two species, then each tribe sees what damage they can inflict. They could even be divided (randomly) into two teams. One supporting the scourge and the other the UCM. Whichever teams race wins is the winning side, with the tribe within the team that did the most work becoming the ruling tribe.

The reason they have used the scourge is the scourges desire for new hosts leads them easily into war. It could be the Shaltari stumbled into the "first" of the two races fighting the scourge and have been following them ever since.
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Creeping Dementia

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 8:04 pm

I disagree on the Scourge being the threat the the existence of all life, for a bunch of different reasons. They have shown no desire to wipe out all life. They NEED other life around for them to exist and thrive. They have allowed the Resistance to exist and really haven't tried to completely wipe them out. They haven't been trying to trying to wipe out flora and fauna on worlds they conquer. Even in their biggest threats include the idea that they are going to keep humans alive as pets.

Now I agree that the Scourge are a threat to the liberty of other races, but not a threat to life as a whole.


On the Shaltari chunk, I see where it can be ambiguous. I do think the use of the word "attempted" would be an odd choice when using alternate wording of "yours is the third species that the Shaltari have thrown in our way in an effort to end us" would be far more accurate if the Scourge had actually eliminated the first two species.
If I say "I have made three attempts at eating a 30Lb hamburger in an effort to become morbidly obese", the natural assumption is that I was unsuccessful in eating the hamburger at least once. The Shaltari have made the attempt to throw a species at the Scourge 3 times, that doesn't mean each attempt was successful. The reason for throwing species at the Scourge comes later, at least in my mind meaning that the "attempts" is referring to the act of species throwing.
The "we are still here" portion is irrelevant, of course they are still here, they are talking to them, that statement is just for dramatic effect and not really relevant information.

Of course it's all up to interpretation, and we will find out more for sure eventually. It's fun to speculate though.



One thing I can't figure out: why is it better that the UCM see the PHR unfavorably? It seems like the PHR prefer to be seen as an enemy to the UCM right now, and that it's for the UCMs good. And I don't know why.
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Samael

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostTue Aug 30, 2016 9:05 pm

My thief is based on thinking of the scourge as locust (or humans :o ). They consume resources to quickly for them to be replenished. Either the scourge will binge and die out, or they will consume sentient life too quickly and leave nine fir the next million years or so.

A break in the existence of sentient life could be bad, as there is a remote chance it won't appear again.

As to the scourge, I don't think that there is a single scourge fleet, rather the scourge home world periodically sends out fleets, as its population gets too big.
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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 5:42 am

Well, after reading all that...

I have a feeling that there's more to the Shaltari plan than just pitting humanity against the Scourge and picking off what's left. They've already tried that before, and the Scourge are wisening up to it. While they obviously decided that humanity was too delicious to pass up, the fact that they are aware that the Shaltari are manipulating them is still a major weakness in the Shaltari plan. Why try the same plan over and over again, besides?

Perhaps the Shaltari are up to something more. As per CD's theory, perhaps there is another race out there that has up until this point either been dormant, or building its strength, or otherwise indisposed towards humanity and the Scourge (I keep mentally jumping to Necron tomb worlds, if you can see where I'm going).

A race scary to Shaltari, but one that they hope to distract or bleed out through conflict with the lesser races. The Scourge won't see it coming because they think that their Shaltari-sponsored opponent is the UCM.

A race so terrifying that the Shaltari themselves are split over drawing them into the fight to finally end the Scourge, hence the major infighting we're seeing. One side argues that the Scourge have posed enough of a threat to warrant employing this race as a weapon, another saying it's too dangerous, pandora's box, et cetera and so forth. Perhaps the White Sphere is a refugee from this synthetic race?

Perhaps the random PHR drops and interventions are trying to forestall the arrival of this new foe - and I have a feeling that the Tlalocan system will be ground zero - the PHR are obviously fortifying there, but not against the Scourge, the Shaltari or the UCM it would seem. Trying to prepare a wall in order to keep something in?

Addendum:

Perhaps the Shaltari aren't aware of this synthetic AI race, but the White Sphere is...
Lurking with intent.
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Creeping Dementia

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 12:47 pm

Jaeger wrote:

Addendum:

Perhaps the Shaltari aren't aware of this synthetic AI race, but the White Sphere is...


That is entirely possible, we have no indication the Shaltari know, except for the idea that the Shaltari seem to know everything and don't have to follow the rules of the game.

There are a few more things we can extrapolate about the Shaltari from Phase 2.
1: the Shaltari are not strong enough to defeat the Scourge head on. Or it would be so closely matched that it would leave one or both species permanently mangled.
2: Shaltari might have the least amount of species unity out of all the known races so far, likely a huge reason they aren't strong enough to beat the Scourge. They might be very technologically advanced, but as a species they are weak due to infighting.
3: possible reasons they are using the Scourge as a big dumb hammer are A: the Scourge naturally were migrating toward the Shaltari core worlds and their survival instinct overrode their last for battle, so they redirected them, B: an alliance of Tribes are steering the Scourge toward an enemy Tribal alliance and humanity were in the path (maybe humanity intentionally placed in the path by that rival Tribal Alliance as a buffer).


It seems to be hinted at more and more that the PHRs seemingly random moves and interventions have the end goal of the preservation of Humanity, while the Shaltari interventions are aimed at escalating the war.
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wowskyguy

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 3:28 pm

The story continues on Dropfleet!
--
Andy

"Here's everything I know
about war: Somebody wins,
somebody loses, and
nothing is ever the same again."
Admiral Constanza Stark,
C.Y. 9784
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Creeping Dementia

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostWed Aug 31, 2016 5:46 pm

wowskyguy wrote:The story continues on Dropfleet!


Does it? We may never know! (just the anxious kickstarter backer coming out to say hi.)
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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 3:31 pm

Creeping Dementia wrote:So I just finished Phase 2 background stuff, and I'm itching to discuss some things.


I'm most interested in the Shaltari being the ones orchestrating the initial invasion. In particular, that humanity was the third race the Shaltari tried to get the Scourge to attack. However, the key word in that passage is "attempted", meaning the Shaltari were not successful in getting the Scourge to attack every race they wanted... meaning there is at least one, maybe two, races out there that the Scourge were guided to by the Shaltari, and the Scourge didn't take the bait!
Why wouldn't the Scourge take the bait every time? They tell us indirectly. They went after humanity because they were juicy, a relatively soft target. So the race (or two) that the Scourge didn't go for must have been strong enough to be a threat to the very existence of the Scourge if they were to invade them. Sounds like possibilities for a future release! Strong enough to stand up to the Scourge, hated by the Shaltari, and obviously strong enough to be a threat to the others.




What page is that?
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Samael

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Re: Lets talk about Phase 2 knowledge bombs, SPOILERS

PostThu Sep 01, 2016 7:20 pm

samspace wrote:
Creeping Dementia wrote:So I just finished Phase 2 background stuff, and I'm itching to discuss some things.


I'm most interested in the Shaltari being the ones orchestrating the initial invasion. In particular, that humanity was the third race the Shaltari tried to get the Scourge to attack. However, the key word in that passage is "attempted", meaning the Shaltari were not successful in getting the Scourge to attack every race they wanted... meaning there is at least one, maybe two, races out there that the Scourge were guided to by the Shaltari, and the Scourge didn't take the bait!
Why wouldn't the Scourge take the bait every time? They tell us indirectly. They went after humanity because they were juicy, a relatively soft target. So the race (or two) that the Scourge didn't go for must have been strong enough to be a threat to the very existence of the Scourge if they were to invade them. Sounds like possibilities for a future release! Strong enough to stand up to the Scourge, hated by the Shaltari, and obviously strong enough to be a threat to the others.




It is heavily implied in the last 4 pages


What page is that?
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