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Noob Rules Queries

Stuck on a rules interpretation, get it answered here!
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smoltz29brave

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Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 2:45 am

Noob questions here folks....I'd gladly appreciate any help you could offer.

1) When firing the orbital bombardment granted by the Kodiak, does it his aerial targets? It would seem to make sense that while you couldn't target them (moving far too fast to call in a strike) that if they're in the way of the small template when the hit comes in then they get pounded as well. Thoughts?

2) Aircraft fly at 6 inches altitude. Is there a rule that allows them to fly higher to clear 6 inch tall buildings?

3) I thought I remember seeing in one of Hawk's play-through videos that there is a penalty for initiative rolls if your commander was killed (other than losing his modifier on the rolls), but I can't find it in the rules. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

I'm sure there are other questions....I just can't think of them right now.
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Nobody

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 3:05 am

smoltz29brave wrote:Noob questions here folks....I'd gladly appreciate any help you could offer.

1) When firing the orbital bombardment granted by the Kodiak, does it his aerial targets? It would seem to make sense that while you couldn't target them (moving far too fast to call in a strike) that if they're in the way of the small template when the hit comes in then they get pounded as well. Thoughts?

2) Aircraft fly at 6 inches altitude. Is there a rule that allows them to fly higher to clear 6 inch tall buildings?

3) I thought I remember seeing in one of Hawk's play-through videos that there is a penalty for initiative rolls if your commander was killed (other than losing his modifier on the rolls), but I can't find it in the rules. Anyone know what I'm talking about?

I'm sure there are other questions....I just can't think of them right now.


1) Officially, the answer is "no" as it does not have the "AA" rule (I believe there's also a rule interaction with area weapons and fliers, but the lack of "AA" would cinch it by itself).

2) Nope, flying higher is instant death, gotta plot a path that goes around it.

3) There is no additional penalty, you just lose the bonus to the roll for your commander's CV level.
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smoltz29brave

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 5:03 am

Thanks for the replies. Not quite what I was expecting...or rather what makes sense in any case.

1) I got it that the weapon does not have an AA rating....but if it's coming from above (i.e. orbit) then logic would dictate to hit the ground it would have to go through the sky above the ground....which would be occupied by aerial units.

2) That makes zero sense. But whatever.

3) You'd think a unit losing its commander would suffer a loss of cohesion. When the guy directing the fight goes down, there is a gap in time when the unit is trying to figure out who is in charge (or in some cases, that the commander is down at all). I'd think there would be a one turn penalty to the initiative roll.

Again, I'm not disputing your answers, more the logic behind the rules.
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Brunius

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:07 am

#2 is covered under "Moving over steep contours above 6"" on pg43. ie you can move to the cliff face above it by taking the appropriate penalty to move.

However, fast movers simply can't do it (pg46)
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ElectricPaladin

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:12 am

smoltz29brave wrote:Thanks for the replies. Not quite what I was expecting...or rather what makes sense in any case.

1) I got it that the weapon does not have an AA rating....but if it's coming from above (i.e. orbit) then logic would dictate to hit the ground it would have to go through the sky above the ground....which would be occupied by aerial units.

2) That makes zero sense. But whatever.


1) I think the idea is that only guns with AA can target aircraft, not just because aircraft are in the air, but because they are moving more quickly. So it's not that the laser can't hit them on the way down, it's that the ship in orbit can't get a bead on the aircraft to make the shot in the first place.

2) The idea is that the battle zone has been decided by a mutual need to acquire something of interest in the area. Either it has buildings that one or both side would find useful, or there's something in one of the buildings that one or both sides needs, or the location itself is tactically important. Otherwise, they'd just continue to bomb it from a distance using orbital bombardments, cruise missiles, artillery, and bombing runs from fast movers.

So, the PHR says "we need to get the intel that's in one of those buildings," start using their ECM capabilities to screw with attempts to bombard that area, and begin to move troops in. The UCM says "shit, the PHR has blocked us from bombing that city on that hill and they're moving troops in - we'd better get some guys there to stop whatever they're up to." The mutual jamming of long-range combat opens up a battlefield. And also, you know, bombing your own mans is largely frowned upon.

However, if you fly too high above the area that both sides have informally and without actually communicating agreed is the battle zone, you end up above the area of ECM jamming, and one of the enemy's long-range lasers/space lasers/artillery tanks parked off the board/whatever can take aim at you and blow you out of the sky, or at least force you into extended evasive maneuvers that prevent you from returning to the battle zone.

Remember, DZC is an effort to advance real life military technology into the far future. Right now, lots of militaries end up conducting some of their most important operations using airstrikes, drones, and cyber-warfare. Since it's hard to make that into a wargame, Hawk has developed the conceit that this kind of squad-based maneuvering opens up whenever there's something to do other than shell the crap out of each other from over the horizon.
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smoltz29brave

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:27 am

Brunius wrote:#2 is covered under "Moving over steep contours above 6"" on pg43. ie you can move to the cliff face above it by taking the appropriate penalty to move.However, fast movers simply can't do it (pg46)


Thanks. That's what I'd been missing. Understand fast movers....you can only do a close air support from a low altitude. That makes sense. I just didn't see why a dropship couldn't just fly a little higher.

ElectricPaladin wrote:1) I think the idea is that only guns with AA can target aircraft, not just because aircraft are in the air, but because they are moving more quickly. So it's not that the laser can't hit them on the way down, it's that the ship in orbit can't get a bead on the aircraft to make the shot in the first place.


I get not targeting it. That makes sense. But if it happens to be hovering over a ground target you are shooting at, then it should take hits.

ElectricPaladin wrote:Remember, DZC is an effort to advance real life military technology into the far future. Right now, lots of militaries end up conducting some of their most important operations using airstrikes, drones, and cyber-warfare.


This isn't accurate. Being an active duty officer in the US Army, I can tell you that there is now and will always be a need for troops on the ground. Surgical strikes are one thing, but air power cannot destroy an enemy's army, nor can it occupy ground. There is always a need to put troops on the ground if you want to own territory (Something the UCM kind of wants to do...hence the Reconquest). Moreover, with all the CMs in the game, long range strikes don't get through (as the rulebook points out in several instances).
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ElectricPaladin

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:33 am

smoltz29brave wrote:This isn't accurate. Being an active duty officer in the US Army, I can tell you that there is now and will always be a need for troops on the ground. Surgical strikes are one thing, but air power cannot destroy an enemy's army, nor can it occupy ground. There is always a need to put troops on the ground if you want to own territory (Something the UCM kind of wants to do...hence the Reconquest). Moreover, with all the CMs in the game, long range strikes don't get through (as the rulebook points out in several instances).


That's exactly what I mean! You need infantry to do all sorts of things. They're absolutely essential... in the right circumstances. But in a future world where all the other stuff we use to fight war from far away have gotten even better than they are now, I think it makes sense that if an aircraft leaves the area blanketed by ECM, it's going to get blown up.
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Nobody

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:42 am

I saw the Kodiak thing in the rules and shrugged, but it makes sense with Electricpaladin's answer. The Orbital Strike already has trouble hitting ground targets (the accuracy penalty) that have moved around, so it's very likely that hitting a moving aircraft with it is damn near impossible.

You may want to read about the Missile Halo in the rulebook to explain the answer for question #2 (I believe the initial description of it is in the UCM tech section, before it goes into the pictures of various weapons). Note that unless the building is sufficiently large enough where it's a massive terrain feature in its own right, you cannot use the "moving over steep contours" rule to have aircraft fly over it. Per the FAQ:
"Q. Can aircraft, including Fast Movers, fly over 6" tall structures? Or must they fly around them?
A. They must fly around"

As for #3, remember that you aren't just losing the CV value, you're also ditching command cards (and can't use any that rely on Sphere of Influence) so there can be a significant penalty already (plus, it gives an advantage to somebody who doesn't use a commander since they can never get that penalty).

(I'm presuming for #3 you were referring to the CV value commander, not models that have the "Command" designation).
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ElectricPaladin

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 6:44 am

I agree with Nobody. The writers put it much more elegantly than I could (especially at 10:45 PM with the flu).
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Noob Rules Queries

PostSun Feb 05, 2017 2:41 pm

1. Simple, same as fast movers and normal aircraft the aircraft can just dodge around the incoming blast, they probably have plenty of warning that it is inbound between targeting lasers and the orbital disturbance and given how inaccurate they are it would be almost impossible to hit an aircraft even if you were trying to.

Rules are clear that you need AA to be able to target aircraft.

2. This one always gets new players to the game. As pointed out by the main rules and the FAQ, you cannot fly over a 6"(+) tall building ever. Contours rule is just for that, contours and have no bearing on buildings.

Simple reason for this that has nothing to do with missile shields or any thing background. This is a miniature wargame and will require some abstractions to work. If a building on the table was 24" tall would you still think it is dumb that your aircraft can't fly over it? Keep in mind that the tallest of the card buildings is a little over 10 stories tall. In my home city that is a small apartment building, many towers downtown are 50-75 floors and would be about 5' tall in DZC scale (and we have seen in the art that their cities are most made up of buildings that large or larger). In order for us to have a game that fits on a table some abstraction will be required and this is one of them. Also by putting limits on the aircraft movement we see a lot more tactics in their use, the game would just be about AA bubbles and strait lines rather than tactically moving between buildings to avoid fire. Dave was just smart enough to make up the missile halo shield over the battlefield to give even more reason for aircraft to stay low (and why we need to fight in visual range at all!).

3. No extra penalty, others discussed why it sucks to lose a commander.

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