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Motherships and Orbital Layers

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Kemble

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 1:27 pm

The range and distances involved with voidgates are not relevant.

What is being discussed is: p196 "they have a Launch capacity in the same way as troopships of other races and they use the same rules for when they may launch"

The issue is that this states the mothership has to follow the same rules to launch as a troopship.

Group A. Believes that this is referring to the generic launch rules and not the only rule specific to troopships and that is that from Bulk landers which require low orbit or atmosphere (page 63) They believe that because shaltari launch gates not bulk landers that the only specific rule for troopship launches (bulk landers) does not apply to shaltari.

Group 1. Believes that there is no reason to reference troopships at all if a mothership only needs to meet generic launch requirements. And therefore the only reason to state they follow troopship launch rules is to have the mothership obey bulk lander orbital layer restrictions as well.

With both groups more than happy that the voidgates need to be in the appropriate layer for the landing of the gate (dropship equivalent that also follows rules for dropships) and therefore the voidgate and distances are not relevant.
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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 2:07 pm

It mentions troopships only to let you know that they are troop deploying ships similar to other races. This is to let people know they are transports nothing more. Being like a troopship doesnt matter for orbital layer unless you can give me a page ref and reason limiting troopships to launching in one layer or a another only.
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 2:14 pm

Kemble wrote:The range and distances involved with voidgates are not relevant.

What is being discussed is: p196 "they have a Launch capacity in the same way as troopships of other races and they use the same rules for when they may launch"

The issue is that this states the mothership has to follow the same rules to launch as a troopship.

Group A. Believes that this is referring to the generic launch rules and not the only rule specific to troopships and that is that from Bulk landers which require low orbit or atmosphere (page 63) They believe that because shaltari launch gates not bulk landers that the only specific rule for troopship launches (bulk landers) does not apply to shaltari.

Group 1. Believes that there is no reason to reference troopships at all if a mothership only needs to meet generic launch requirements. And therefore the only reason to state they follow troopship launch rules is to have the mothership obey bulk lander orbital layer restrictions as well.

With both groups more than happy that the voidgates need to be in the appropriate layer for the landing of the gate (dropship equivalent that also follows rules for dropships) and therefore the voidgate and distances are not relevant.


not sure if i understand you right? but it sounds like you just ignore this:

...
When a Mothership is launching Gates, they are NOT
deployed from the Mothership itself.
...


if than i must say thats not a valide way to argue....

well let hawk add another sentence to satisfy you all, i say there is now issue to understand this, and i am sure to convince everyone in a direct talk, but ill stop commenting here its to tiring for me. just because i really dont see any issue with the motherships not being in low orbit....
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Kemble

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 2:54 pm

Cry of the Wind wrote:Being like a troopship doesnt matter for orbital layer unless you can give me a page ref and reason limiting troopships to launching in one layer or a another only.


Well except for page 63
Rulebook wrote:Bulk Landers may only be launched by carriers that are in Low Orbit or Atmosphere
Soooo, a troopship has nothing to launches while in high orbit? Or it could be said the troopship cannot launch while in high orbit. I realise you are trying to say that the troopship itself dosnt have a rule that prevents its from launching from any particular orbital layer. Except that the things it launch do. And therefore as motherships launch something different the rules for the troopships limitation via bulk landers dosnt carry through to the mothership. I perfectly understand this logic and I have no problem implementing that rule interpretation in my games. I probably will as the majority of current responses read it this way. (even if 3 out of 4 older interpretations ruled it the other way without being disputed) So I am less likely to have a mid game discussion and have somebody frustrated that an Emerald does something mid-game that they were not expecting.


At the same time I appreciate the point of view that there is no reason for hawk to reference the troopship on page 196 if the generic launch rules is all that is required. It would have been crystal clear with no possible confusion if it just stated that the the motherships need to meet the requirements for launching. If that was the intention. The fact that the statements are linked with having a launch capacity in the same way as the troopships of other races and use the same rules for when they may launch throws a bit of mud into the water that was unnecessary.

I think it is worthy of a response from Hawk tho. I really dont enjoy playing a game where I have to run over potentially conflicting rule interpretations before every game with a player I havnt played with before, or end up with a mid game discussion over rules interpretations. It kills the fun of the game for me.
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 3:15 pm

Kemble wrote:... except for page 63
Rulebook wrote:Bulk Landers may only be launched by carriers that are in Low Orbit or Atmosphere
Soooo, a troopship has nothing to launches while in high orbit? Or it could be said the troopship cannot launch while in high orbit...


dont see any Troopship in your sentence of Page 63... its "Carriers" now this talks about "Bulk Landers"

i again dont understand....

Are "Gates" like "Bulk Landers" ? weird argument to me
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

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Cry of the Wind

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 3:20 pm

dread2005 wrote:
Kemble wrote:... except for page 63
Rulebook wrote:Bulk Landers may only be launched by carriers that are in Low Orbit or Atmosphere
Soooo, a troopship has nothing to launches while in high orbit? Or it could be said the troopship cannot launch while in high orbit...


dont see any Troopship in your sentence of Page 63... its "Carriers" now this talks about "Bulk Landers"

i again dont understand....

Are "Gates" like "Bulk Landers" ? weird argument to me


Exactly. No rule restricts where ships can launch from their cargo does. Motherships dont launch Bulk Lander so why should they care? If the cargo matters Motherships need to be in atmo to deploy dropships. To restrict them to Low Orbiy requires another rule to be made up.
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 3:46 pm

Kemble wrote:.... At the same time I appreciate the point of view that there is no reason for hawk to reference the troopship on page 196 if the generic launch rules is all that is required. It would have been crystal clear with no possible confusion if it just stated that the the motherships need to meet the requirements for launching. If that was the intention. The fact that the statements are linked with having a launch capacity in the same way as the troopships of other races and use the same rules for when they may launch throws a bit of mud into the water that was unnecessary....



maybe i start to understand Kemble's point of view now....

ok so here i go, tha game has ship classes right, like frigates, cruisers and so on... than there are strike carriers and troopships which get used as class, but they are not a class! the class of a UCM Strike Carrier is "New Orleans" that is the ship class! because of this Named Class it is forced to Group up with others of his kinde!

example, UCM could get more strike carrier like classes, which just would be frigates that have the special rule Launch!

now where i want to point at is, there is no sort of valid "Troopship" in game terms!!!

there is for example a Cruiser which can Launch at UCM fleet, like the San Francisco or the Seattle right?

now whats the differents between those two?`

well the seattle can Launch to Low or High orbit, if it is in low or high orbit!

and well the san francisco can launch to atmo or low orbit both if it is in low orbit!

now the restriction for seattle not launching from Atmo is because it cant go into atmo by itself and the bombers cant be deployed in atmo

now the restriction for san francsico not launching from high orbit are only present because "Bulk Lander" cant be deployed to High Orbit


so again there is no need to call a san francisco or a emeralde a Troopship or lets say in other words i could call a New Orleans a troopship because its not important for any given rule!
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
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Kemble

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 4:06 pm

Yeah I guess thats one way to view it. I am struggling to follow your logic a little tho.

I'd rather not say that it is my point of view, I am trying to stay neutral here. As to me the water is muddy enough that I am not 100% that either interpretation is correct.

It might also be worth noting that the bulk lander rule references 'carriers' not troopships. Yet troopships and assault troopships and motherships all fall into the 'carriers' category. (page 49, 3rd paragraph states that anything and everything that launches something is a carrier) I doubt this is going to influence anyone tho.

I'm not sure Hawk really uses these categories and terms deliberately tho. I mean Scourge and Shaltari dont have Corvettes, they have Hunter-Killers and Cloudfliers. I cant help but think a lot of these titles are just fluff and not rules relevant.


The rule segment for motherships that I quote from page 196 has the statement of contention could of used the word 'carrier' instead of troopship. And that would indicate that most certainly does not matter that a mothership is in high orbit. But because it uses a slightly more specific term troopship (not assault troopship and not fleet carrier or any other carrier) to me its throwing up mud with another possible meaning. That I am not trying to say is, or is not correct.
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dread2005

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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 4:37 pm

hm ok strange, so your digging in the Mud to be prepared if someone is going to Argue on this?

lets ask a delicate question, just to make the mud deeper, like you say! ;-P or clean it up depends on the Answer.

RB page 53
Orbital Debris and Launch Assets

.... well never thought about this before, and i believe the answer is NO, but here it comes.

do GATES need to roll for passing through debris fields in a Void gate Chain?!

if you make a rule which forces Mother ships to only deploy/launch from Low Orbit, the Answer needs to be YES on the upper Question.

thoughts?
Quote: " nothing is ever easy " by zedicus zul zorrander

Dropfleet ADMIRAL may Mankind conquer the universe
UCM ~2500 Points, PHR ~2000 Points

Dropzone GENERAL revenge of Mankind
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Re: Motherships and Orbital Layers

PostFri May 19, 2017 7:54 pm

p196

"When a Mothership is launching Gates, they are NOT deployed from the Mothership itself. Instead they are deployed from Voidgates."

So I would read that as it doesn't really matter which layer the Mothership is in, only the Voidgates as they are the ones actually doing the deploying.
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