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New things to come?

Tell the world your Dropfleet related trials and tribulations!
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wundergoat

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 5:26 am

I think that the design of the Centurion is great, especially as a faction baseline. It has a lot of "oh wow" stats what being pretty balanced as the kind of overdesigned jack of all trades that one would expect from the EAA. Point wise its not too far off, as its useable firepower isn't crazy (BFG is laser levels with drawback, WF is side arc and not unreasonable) and while the durability is heafty, firepower is king.

As a special multi-faction limited release ship, I'm with Shikatanai; there are some big problems. Obviously allowing a limited edition ship into competitive games is a major issue. As a multi-faction ship, it really messes with internal balance. I look at it from a UCM perspective and wonder what I would do with this since I'm paying a premium for it over laserboats. From a PHR perspective, it outshines the standard cruisers (which is a faction weakness, for some reason). Here is to hoping a non-limited release model is put out there. Also, buff PHR cruisers :P
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Lordprinceps

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 7:44 am

I'm really going to have to disagree; it's way off base in regards to points, and its downside is easily managed by just staying on standard orders and enjoying all the benefits that it brings.
If we look for precedent of "medium ships that are actually heavies", the PHR troopships cost 130-135 despite effectively being a heavy cruiser. The Centurion is not only tougher than any heavy cruiser, but it's firepower is absolutely insane when compared to any other gun cruiser on standard orders. Bloom is an almost negligible penalty for a 6" signature ship that's going to want to get in close anyways. I stand by that it should be at least 150 points at an absolute minimum, possibly even 155. With a reduction to 3+ armor, or a reduction to 10 hull (one or the other), I'd say that it'd sit nicely around 130-135.

As for the issue of it being an exclusive unit, I agree fully; the only reasonable thing to do is to release a general sale alternate sculpt later on with the same stat-block when/if the remnant becomes a proper fleet.
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BlackLegion

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 10:42 am

1. I'm pretty sure the stats and/or points cost will be adjusted when the Remnant faction is released.

2. I'm also pretty sure that the Centurion will turn out to be just an alternative sculpt like the KS battlecruisers.

3. Please have some games with the Centurion to back up your claims. Have games with your proposed changes too. Post about your actual in-game experience of this :)
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Shikatanai

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 12:37 pm

BlackLegion wrote:1. I'm pretty sure the stats and/or points cost will be adjusted when the Remnant faction is released.

2. I'm also pretty sure that the Centurion will turn out to be just an alternative sculpt like the KS battlecruisers.

3. Please have some games with the Centurion to back up your claims. Have games with your proposed changes too. Post about your actual in-game experience of this :)


1 and 2 is wishful thinking. Hawk is not Hawk anymore and nobody knows which approach TT Combat will take.

3. Sorry but imho it should be very obvious for anybody with some game experience that it is just underprieced for what it can do and outright outperforms most of the other cruisers especially when thinking about PHR.
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Lorn

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 1:09 pm

Shikatanai wrote:What bothers me is:
We / you compare it against one of the best ship types in the game. Compare it to other Cruisers (especially when considering PHR) and it is just way better - and it is an exclusive, limited amount / limited time ship. That's the main Problem here imho.


I disagree that this is an issue, first off we only compare the standard order firepower, which excludes Shaltari and Scourge for the most part. Secondly why should the new ship be balanced in accordance with ships neither you nor I would take in a competitive setting? :?
I would rather have the ships that are under performing buffed then any new release brought down to their level.
Even if the Centurion would not exist would you include PHR Broadside mediums (that are no Troopships) in your fleet? Personally I would not.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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Shikatanai

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 3:36 pm

Lorn wrote:I disagree that this is an issue, first off we only compare the standard order firepower, which excludes Shaltari and Scourge for the most part.


Imho this does not matter in the first place. It is a UCM/PHR Cruiser and is basicly better than all other cruisers except for the New Cairo (and arguably the Berlin). Bringing in an exclusive Cruiser that is the go to choice is just plain and simple bad for the game. Actually in the case of PHR the only other "Cruiser" I'd consider is the Orpheus and that's only because its a troopship...

Lorn wrote:Secondly why should the new ship be balanced in accordance with ships neither you nor I would take in a competitive setting?


That's not what I want but I rather have a subpar exclusive ship than one that is the go to choice when fielding a Cruiser... Internal balance is a mess anyway, we both know that, but it gets out of hand if exclusive stuff gets better than other stuff imho.

Lorn wrote:I would rather have the ships that are under performing buffed then any new release brought down to their level.


I agree but unfortunately I don't see that happening... at least not soon.

Lorn wrote:Even if the Centurion would not exist would you include PHR Broadside mediums (that are no Troopships) in your fleet? Personally I would not.


I agree I would not. I also really would not care (although I would still increase the points cost) but I'm mainly worried about excklusive miniatures that outperform regular stuff. I don't know where TT Combat will go but it is not a good sign.

Overall I'd always include at least one Centurion in my PHR and UCM lists right now. Depending on Listbuilding and Scenariosetup maybe even two and that is not I would consider as good for the game when thinking about exclusive stuff.
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Overread

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 4:04 pm

Shikatanai wrote:
BlackLegion wrote:1. I'm pretty sure the stats and/or points cost will be adjusted when the Remnant faction is released.

2. I'm also pretty sure that the Centurion will turn out to be just an alternative sculpt like the KS battlecruisers.

3. Please have some games with the Centurion to back up your claims. Have games with your proposed changes too. Post about your actual in-game experience of this :)


1 and 2 is wishful thinking. Hawk is not Hawk anymore and nobody knows which approach TT Combat will take.


True, but one can hope that they take lessons from other brands. The year that Games Workshop stopped releasing "best ever" new codex's and "new units are the best ever" and started improving both codex to codex and internal codex balance has seen them make such huge gains in profit its outmatched their production and also led to their shares having the greatest rise over the whole of the UK market.

In short the better internal balance and faction balance of their games directly helps contribute toward increased game sales and popularity.

It's very tempting to make each new ship the best ever and you can often see that newer stuff released near to a new edition can sometimes be balanced more for that edition than the current; but in general its a short term approach that onyl favours one segment of the fanbase. It's also a policy that, medium to long term, will lose fans very quickly. It might work in game with faster turn around of product and lower cost (eg MTG) but in wargames where purchases are typically more spread out and where gamers buy products that they expect to have a longer viable lifespan; its just bad practice to only focus on the new being overpowered.
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wundergoat

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Re: New things to come?

PostFri Feb 09, 2018 4:42 pm

Lordprinceps wrote:I'm really going to have to disagree; it's way off base in regards to points, and its downside is easily managed by just staying on standard orders and enjoying all the benefits that it brings.
If we look for precedent of "medium ships that are actually heavies", the PHR troopships cost 130-135 despite effectively being a heavy cruiser. The Centurion is not only tougher than any heavy cruiser, but it's firepower is absolutely insane when compared to any other gun cruiser on standard orders. Bloom is an almost negligible penalty for a 6" signature ship that's going to want to get in close anyways. I stand by that it should be at least 150 points at an absolute minimum, possibly even 155. With a reduction to 3+ armor, or a reduction to 10 hull (one or the other), I'd say that it'd sit nicely around 130-135.

As for the issue of it being an exclusive unit, I agree fully; the only reasonable thing to do is to release a general sale alternate sculpt later on with the same stat-block when/if the remnant becomes a proper fleet.


I honestly do not get your reasoning and seriously question if we play the same game. In what world are PHR troopships effectively heavy cruisers? Are you using just HP as the deciding factor? It makes sense given how much you appear to value HP over useable firepower.

Standard order gun cruisers? They hit like wet noodles. Good gun cruisers shine under WF. Using standard orders as a benchmark is disingenuous since the game obviously isn't balanced around it. Otherwise laser boats are next level OP.

Bloom isn't a real penalty? I don't think the enemy will oblige sending all their units to the same location, which is the scenario where bloom doesn't matter. Realistically, it means the enemy can concentrate fire on you far more easily with ships going after other CPs.
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Lordprinceps

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Re: New things to come?

PostSat Feb 10, 2018 12:07 am

wundergoat wrote:I honestly do not get your reasoning and seriously question if we play the same game. In what world are PHR troopships effectively heavy cruisers? Are you using just HP as the deciding factor? It makes sense given how much you appear to value HP over useable firepower.

Because they are PHR heavy cruisers, just with slightly less frontal firepower. This is also a note on how overall weak PHR heavy cruisers are compared to their own cruisers, but yes, HP and overall mass are the primary determining factor for actual ship class, since firepower varies so wildly between different variants. I would also say that you're immensely undervaluing HP relative to firepower.

wundergoat wrote:Standard order gun cruisers? They hit like wet noodles. Good gun cruisers shine under WF. Using standard orders as a benchmark is disingenuous since the game obviously isn't balanced around it. Otherwise laser boats are next level OP.

That's why I compared them both under standard orders and weapons free. Under standard orders, they're superior even to lasers; under weapons free, the centurion is somewhat worse.

wundergoat wrote:Bloom isn't a real penalty? I don't think the enemy will oblige sending all their units to the same location, which is the scenario where bloom doesn't matter. Realistically, it means the enemy can concentrate fire on you far more easily with ships going after other CPs.

And the centurion is going to be getting into range of a lot of enemies anyways, because of how damn tough it is and because of how broadsides tend to work out. And you're forgetting how absolutely cheap the Centurion is too; the enemy is concentrating firepower on only a tenth of your fleet, that tenth being exactly as tough as an outright battlecruiser thanks to its armor.
I know you think HP is relatively minor, but really consider that; for 125 points, the Centurion can soak as much damage as something that costs 190 points; all that firepower going into something that can continue to put out reasonable firepower on its own constantly, has less relative penalty from going weapons free (since it's already on a minor spike all the time), rather than other ships, and in a game that only lasts 6 turns anyways.

If you judge it as a cruiser, it's massively overpowered for its cost.
If you judge it as a heavy cruiser, it's massively undercosted for its power.
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Lorn

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Re: New things to come?

PostMon Feb 12, 2018 6:11 pm

Imho this does not matter in the first place.


I would argue that for balance it is important if you don´t want to debate that fine.

That's not what I want but I rather have a subpar exclusive ship than one that is the go to choice when fielding a Cruiser... Internal balance is a mess anyway, we both know that, but it gets out of hand if exclusive stuff gets better than other stuff imho.


Then the better solution would be to make it non-exclusive in combination with a slight balance pass. Also you know my opinion towards DFC Tournaments and outside of those proxies are less of an issue.
I don´t think anyone likes the exclusiveness of it, at least from a gaming perspective.

German space magic for PHR would you like to know more?
http://www.hawkforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=7017

German space magic for all and this time it is in Space!
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=10506
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